Jig Title
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The purpose of this forum is to provide a place for people who are interested in the Irish language and various Celtic languages to discuss them, to practice them, and to share information about them, particularly (but not exclusively) in the context of traditional music and culture.
This is not a "translation forum," per se, though translation requests may occasionally be honored at the discretion of the moderators. If you're seeking a one-time translation for something like a tattoo, engraving, wedding vow, or other such purpose, we strongly recommend that you visit our friends at ILF: http://irishlearner.awyr.com
- an seanduine
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Jig Title
I'm struggling with a translation for a jig title. It is given as Muing Fliuch. I find nothing of value through Google. They suggest the alternative 'Muine Fliuch', which leads me to several possibilities: The Wet Thicket, Moneyflugh, or a Kerry variant: The West Thicket.
Can anyone please give me assistance on this one. . .my Irish is extremely poor.
Bob
Can anyone please give me assistance on this one. . .my Irish is extremely poor.
Bob
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Re: Jig Title
So is mine, but I'll take a run at it.an seanduine wrote:my Irish is extremely poor.
Seems likely that the title refers simply to the town of Moneyflugh, Co. Kerry. So it's another tune named after a place, and that's that. The Irish name Muine Fliuch would mean "Wet Thicket", in parallel with other "Money-" town names: Moneygall, Moneyglass, etc. See this Google Books excerpt for one listing:
http://books.google.com/books?id=w_B0Ou ... ch&f=false
"West Thicket" sounds like an Anglophone misinterpretation, especially if Moneyflugh is to the west of some other well-known local place.
As for Muing vs Muine, don't know. Could be that the "g" is a misreading orthographically influenced by the "y" of Money-. What is the source of the jig title as you have it?
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- an seanduine
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Re: Jig Title
Thank you. I picked up the Moneyflugh-West Thicket connection in the Oxford list you cited. I've even picked up a school named 'Muine Fliuch', which I think is in Kerry. I've also been given an alternate in Ulster of translating 'Muine' as a peat-bog, which certainly makes sense with 'fliuch'. So 'Wet Wood' or 'Soggy Bog' would certainly serve as a provisional translation. . .IF my presumption that 'Muing' is an error.
This is the given title, without an English translation, as one of the tunes in Conal O'Grada's book. So-o-o, I reluctant to out and out say it's a mistake: Port Muing Fliuch.
Thanks for the help.
Bob
This is the given title, without an English translation, as one of the tunes in Conal O'Grada's book. So-o-o, I reluctant to out and out say it's a mistake: Port Muing Fliuch.
Thanks for the help.
Bob
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- benhall.1
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Re: Jig Title
As a side issue, it occurs to me that there are an awful lot of occasions when the Irish seem to use the word "thicket". In English, I can't remember the last time I used the word "thicket". Apart from that one. And the one before.
- an seanduine
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Re: Jig Title
Hmmm. Well a search over at The Session reveals this: Muing A TSionnaigh, a Jig, composed by Conal himself and taught at last years Flute Gathering. The Translation is given as the 'Field of the Fox', referring to a field behind his house. I guess this answers my original question. . .and now I can do my Emily Littela impersonation and say "Never mind!".
Bob
Bob
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Re: Jig Title
OK, so The Wet Field, then. A local usage, perhaps? Or even idiosyncratic? Where is Conal from, Ulster? I'd guess "muine" could be "muing", with pronunciation differences. And geographic features like thicket and field can sometimes be fungible.
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Re: Jig Title
Fungible! I love "fungible".
[I should be careful here, and not cut too many monkeyshines for fear of inadvertently or inappropriately sequestrating this indubitably goluptious thread.]
[I should be careful here, and not cut too many monkeyshines for fear of inadvertently or inappropriately sequestrating this indubitably goluptious thread.]
- JackCampin
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Re: Jig Title
The obvious parallel is with another jig, "An Phis Fliuch".
"Phis" is apparently a borrowing, from an English word for a small furry animal with sharp claws.
Could "muing" be a loan from (or the original of) "minge"?
"Phis" is apparently a borrowing, from an English word for a small furry animal with sharp claws.
Could "muing" be a loan from (or the original of) "minge"?
- Nanohedron
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Re: Jig Title
Surely you're taking the pis.
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- an seanduine
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Re: Jig Title
Ummm. Jack, I don't have any problem translating 'An Phis Fliuch'. My understanding is that 'phis' would be analogous to the anglo-saxon pisser (O.E. pizzle).
An Phis Fliuch is a Slip Jig.
Port Muing Fliuch is a Double Jig.
My Irish vocabulary is pitiful. I don't know 'Muing', but by context I know Conal is using it to mean a 'field', when he titled another Jig "Muing A TSionnaigh", Field of the Fox. I don't know enough Irish to know how 'muing' might change in another inflection. Right now my provisional translation would be 'The Wet Field Jig' or alternatively 'The Soggy Field Jig.
Bob
An Phis Fliuch is a Slip Jig.
Port Muing Fliuch is a Double Jig.
My Irish vocabulary is pitiful. I don't know 'Muing', but by context I know Conal is using it to mean a 'field', when he titled another Jig "Muing A TSionnaigh", Field of the Fox. I don't know enough Irish to know how 'muing' might change in another inflection. Right now my provisional translation would be 'The Wet Field Jig' or alternatively 'The Soggy Field Jig.
Bob
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Re: Jig Title
Just to interject that the word is actually "pis" (as I punned with, in kind, above). The H, signifying lenition, happens in cases such as this when feminine nouns follow the definite article "an". Typical dictionaries translate "pis" (nf2) as "pea", so the more arch definition seems to be merely a common vulgarity (there is a proper term, after all) that for all we know has only an accidentally superficial resemblance to the word for the legume it otherwise normally represents. Until an expert can tell us, I'm tempted to doubt (no expert, here) whether in the vulgar usage it has any direct connection to English; and after all, one is concave, you could say, and the other, well, convex.an seanduine wrote:My understanding is that 'phis' would be analogous to the anglo-saxon pisser (O.E. pizzle).
There's a River Muing in Co. Mayo. That would certainly be damp.
After some heavy digging, what I find is that muine means "thicket", and muing means "fen, morass" (not necessarily "bog" which is usually portach). Neither term in English has ever seemed that interchangeable to me, and we know that one letter can make a world of difference. For example, "thicket" and "thicker" are close, but no actual fungibility there, either. There's an even greater distance of meaning between lacha (duck) and lacht (milk). Just tossing the general idea out there.
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- an seanduine
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Re: Jig Title
Thanks Nano.
I get the lenition.
As to vulgarity, Honi soit qui mal y pense.
As to concavity and convexity. . . !(the source of all vexation?) I'm not sure how to inflect gender in Old English, let alone Irish.
Guess I may have to pester Conal. My understanding is he was reared in and around Cork, so probably speaks a Kerry brand of Gaelic, if not a thoroughly academic form through the schools.
Bob
I get the lenition.
As to vulgarity, Honi soit qui mal y pense.
As to concavity and convexity. . . !(the source of all vexation?) I'm not sure how to inflect gender in Old English, let alone Irish.
Guess I may have to pester Conal. My understanding is he was reared in and around Cork, so probably speaks a Kerry brand of Gaelic, if not a thoroughly academic form through the schools.
Bob
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- Redwolf
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Re: Jig Title
I'm asking for expert input here:
http://irishlearner.awyr.com/phpBB3/vie ... f=28&t=991
If I recall correctly, "An Phis Fluich" is actually pretty vulgar...
BTW, it's An (or A') tSionnaigh. The "t" would never be uppercase.
Redwolf
http://irishlearner.awyr.com/phpBB3/vie ... f=28&t=991
If I recall correctly, "An Phis Fluich" is actually pretty vulgar...
BTW, it's An (or A') tSionnaigh. The "t" would never be uppercase.
Redwolf
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- an seanduine
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Re: Jig Title
Thanks Redwolf. I was hoping you'd come by!
I copied the title to the other jig (The field of the fox) straight from The Session.Org, and so am not surprised by it being spelled incorrectly. I'm sure I'd recognize a fox if I saw one, just not necessarily in Irish!
No need for vulgarity where it is unwanted: I've heard the Slip Jig introduced as: O'Farrel's Wlcome to Limerick, and what a Welcome it Was!
Now I am curious to hear what we have with "Port Muing Fliuch".
Bob
I copied the title to the other jig (The field of the fox) straight from The Session.Org, and so am not surprised by it being spelled incorrectly. I'm sure I'd recognize a fox if I saw one, just not necessarily in Irish!
No need for vulgarity where it is unwanted: I've heard the Slip Jig introduced as: O'Farrel's Wlcome to Limerick, and what a Welcome it Was!
Now I am curious to hear what we have with "Port Muing Fliuch".
Bob
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Re: Jig Title
BTW, "pis" is slang for...er...female reproductive apparatus. I believe the Chieftains rendered it as "The Wet Pussy" (and they weren't talking about kitty cats!)
Redwolf
Redwolf
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