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 Post subject: The Mighty Oak
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:25 pm 
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Mighty tough to budge, that is.

Has anyone else had difficulty moving the head of a new Oak whistle? The package states "adjustable (tuneable) mouthpiece". But it took me multiple bouts of Herculean strength even with rubber gloves to finally get the heads off. And one needed several hours in the freezer.

No problem once they're off and lubed up. They move and tune nicely.

Of course, I didn't try hot water because there's no glue to melt, and why risk heat damage if you don't have to.

Feadógs can also be stubborn and need a hefty twist at first. But this seemed extraordinarily hard and likely to discourage noobies who don't know the tricks.

Great whistles, by the way, A+. Quite different with or without the putty fill, and excellent either way. Definitely worth the effort.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mighty Oak
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:45 pm 
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Oak whistles are problematic to disassemble for two reasons:

1. The whistleheads fit especially tightly, so the hot water method may not succeed, and

2. The plastic Oak whistleheads are made of becomes malleable at a low enough temperature that you may discover after you've removed one from the tube, you have an interesting (and useless), slightly twisted whistlehead. This is also true of pre-1980's Generations, btw.

To remove the whistleheads from Oaks or pre-1980's Generations, I don't use the hot water method at all. I use the Joannie Madden Smackdown Method:

1. Find a standard, metal body key of C whistle or the tube thereof.

2. Holding the key of D Oak or pre-1980's Generation (or any other standard metal body D whistle, for that matter) just below the socket, insert the key of D tube inside the key of C tube and propel the D whistle into the C tube like throwing a dart.

Throw it hard, many times. At first, you may not think anything's happening, but the whistlehead will move, a tiny bit at a time until it's far enough towards the end of the tube you can remove it the rest of the way by hand.

Best wishes,
Jerry

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Last edited by Jerry Freeman on Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mighty Oak
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:51 pm 
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The purpose of the hot water, btw, is independent of glue or no glue. The plastic expands when heated, thereby loosening the whistlehead.

When removing Generation, Walton (not glued) or Feadog (also not glued) whistleheads that refuse to come off without heat, you can immerse the whistlehead for ten seconds or so in almost boiling water (don't let it lean on the bottom of the vessel), take the whistlehead firmly in one hand, twist and pull, all in just a few seconds after taking it out of the water, or if you wait a few seconds too long, it will shrink again and not come off until you heat it in the water another time and move more quickly to remove it before it cools again. Use a towel or the like in the whistlehead hand to prevent scalding.

Best wishes,
Jerry

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directly from me: email jerry ("at") freemanwhistles ("dot") com,
from one of the vendors who carry Freeman whistles.


Last edited by Jerry Freeman on Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mighty Oak
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:09 pm 
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Jerry Freeman wrote:
I use the Joannie Madden Smackdown Method:
As I too have observed this several times in use, the Madden Slide Hammer technique apparently works best when you employ an O'Riordan Blackwood Concert D body as the hammer. So make sure you have one of those on hand before you operate on your new $10 whistle. :boggle: :)

Joanie, the one and only!

That makes me cringe every time I think about it.

I have had no real issues with Oak heads. I wrap the head and the body in a rubberized cloth (sold as shelf or drawer liner material) and pull. I resist the urge to twist. I doubt I will ever see as many Oak whistles as Jerry has but this has always worked for me.

Feadoggie

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 Post subject: Re: The Mighty Oak
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:13 pm 
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Feadoggie wrote:
I resist the urge to twist.

A straight line if I ever saw one. Insert wisecrack here _________________________ .

Best wishes,
Jerry

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 Post subject: Re: The Mighty Oak
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:26 pm 
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Jerry Freeman wrote:
Feadoggie wrote:
I resist the urge to twist.

A straight line if I ever saw one. Insert wisecrack here _________________________ .

Like we did last summer?

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 Post subject: Re: The Mighty Oak
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 4:56 pm 
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Jerry Freeman wrote:
Insert wisecrack here Chubby Freeman?.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mighty Oak
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:00 pm 
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Jerry Freeman wrote:
To remove the whistleheads from Oaks or pre-1980's Generations, I don't use the hot water method at all. I use the Joannie Madden Smackdown Method:

You know, I tried the Madden's Hammer method for 10 minutes or so with a Gen C. And as far as I could tell by measuring, the heads moved not one millimeter. My own gorilla grip eventually did the trick, and thankfully no head distortion that I can detect.

But there are no Madden's Hammer instructions on the packaging (which is otherwise quite nice). And it's the perspective of the casual Oak buyer who doesn't read the Chiffboard that I'm mostly thinking about here.

Jerry Freeman wrote:
The purpose of the hot water, btw, is independent of glue or no glue. The plastic expands when heated, thereby loosening the whistlehead.

I wonder about the physics of that, Jerry. No expert, moi, nor as much experience with this as you. But it seems to me that the coefficient and rate of thermal expansion of the plastic will be far less than that of the metal tube. Especially if the tube below the head is also exposed directly to the hot water when immersed.

I can imagine that any thermal movement under the joint might disrupt whatever is binding the head. So the effect may be the same. But I'd think offhand it's metal expansion that's mostly doing the work.

Similarly, I'd guess the freezer trick works because the metal contracts more than the plastic.

As for the Generations, it seems to me that melting glue is mostly at work. I just did another new Gen today, where 10 seconds in 140 degree F. water took it right off. And when you re-immerse the bare tube end, it's evident that the hard glue residue becomes soft and gooey.

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Joel Barish: Is there any risk of brain damage?
Dr. Mierzwiak: Well, technically speaking, the procedure is brain damage.


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 Post subject: Re: The Mighty Oak
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:22 pm 
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Jerry Freeman wrote:
A straight line if I ever saw one. Insert wisecrack here _________________________ .
And I'll thank you not to mention my "Checker'd" past!
Resisting the urge to twist was just what Sister Mary Joseph taught us all to do back in the day.

MTGuru wrote:
You know, I tried the Madden's Hammer method for 10 minutes or so with a Gen C. And as far as I could tell by measuring, the heads moved not one millimeter.
You didn't use an O'Riordan blackwood Concert D body, did you?

Feadoggie

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 Post subject: Re: The Mighty Oak
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:35 pm 
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Feadoggie wrote:
You didn't use an O'Riordan blackwood Concert D body, did you?

No. And I just knew that someday I'd regret not having one, for exactly this purpose. :lol:

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Joel Barish: Is there any risk of brain damage?
Dr. Mierzwiak: Well, technically speaking, the procedure is brain damage.


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 Post subject: Re: The Mighty Oak
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:13 pm 
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MTGuru wrote:
No. And I just knew that someday I'd regret not having one, for exactly this purpose.
Maybe today is your lucky day!

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 Post subject: Re: The Mighty Oak
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:54 pm 
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MTGuru wrote:
You know, I tried the Madden's Hammer method for 10 minutes or so with a Gen C. And as far as I could tell by measuring, the heads moved not one millimeter. My own gorilla grip eventually did the trick, and thankfully no head distortion that I can detect.


Even if it didn't move, your smacking may have broken it loose from the tube enough to pull it off by hand. If you could pull it off by hand, your Smackdown technique may be faulty, as the Smackdown technique, properly executed, should exert considerably more force than simply pulling by hand. Whistleheads I can't remove by any other means (other than C Generations), I have always been able to remove by Smackdown.

After having done the hot water method on a thousand or more (maybe several thousand, I routinely do 40 or 50 at a time) whistles, I'm sure the whistlehead loosens by thermal expansion. It would be hard to convince me it's something other than that. Whistleheads that aren't glued behave exactly the same as Generations in this respect.

Having said that, I looked up the coefficients of linear expansion for:

Brass = 18.7
ABS plastic = 73.8

I believe that means the whistlehead expands and contracts 3.95 times as much per degree of heating/cooling as the tube (any engineers on the board can confirm or correct this). It also explains how Generation can get those damn key of C whistleheads on so tight.

Best wishes,
Jerry

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You can purchase my whistles:
on eBay http://stores.ebay.com/freemanwhistles
directly from me: email jerry ("at") freemanwhistles ("dot") com,
from one of the vendors who carry Freeman whistles.


Last edited by Jerry Freeman on Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:07 pm, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Mighty Oak
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 6:56 pm 
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But seriously, folks. Are we into this stuff or what?

Best wishes,
Jerry

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directly from me: email jerry ("at") freemanwhistles ("dot") com,
from one of the vendors who carry Freeman whistles.


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 Post subject: Re: The Mighty Oak
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 7:59 pm 
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Jerry Freeman wrote:
your Smackdown technique may be faulty

That is very possible. I'm such a gentle soul.

Jerry Freeman wrote:
I looked up the coefficients of linear expansion for:
Brass = 18.7
ABS plastic = 73.8

MTGuru wrote:
it seems to me that the coefficient and rate of thermal expansion of the plastic will be far less than that of the metal tube.

It also seems to me that your numbers are telling me that I'm dead wrong. :wink:

What is the expansion coefficient of my head when it explodes?

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Joel Barish: Is there any risk of brain damage?
Dr. Mierzwiak: Well, technically speaking, the procedure is brain damage.


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 Post subject: Re: The Mighty Oak
PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2012 8:20 pm 
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MTGuru wrote:
Jerry Freeman wrote:
your Smackdown technique may be faulty

That is very possible. I'm such a gentle soul.


This is really quite a violent process. The first time I did it, I thought surely the plastic would break, but it doesn't. The thought of Joannie using a blackwood O'Riordan as the anvil is a bit unsettling, but if the plastic doesn't break, I suppose the blackwood isn't likely to either.

(Next time my head explodes, I'll try to take down some numbers.)

Best wishes,
Jerry

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You can purchase my whistles:
on eBay http://stores.ebay.com/freemanwhistles
directly from me: email jerry ("at") freemanwhistles ("dot") com,
from one of the vendors who carry Freeman whistles.


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