Hi Terry,
So I found the Liddle reference in Last Nights Fun, by Ciaran Carson.

Page 49.

the flute is marked
D'Almaine
late
Goulding and D'Almaine
Soho Square
London

The AL is under the C sharp key.

He reckons Liddle spent sometime with D'Almaine before setting up his own shop.
And gives the following later addresses for Liddle
24 Chenies St. 1847-54
35 Devonshire St. 1854-73



Patrick

Evidently!


As I'm sure you know and I have mentioned variously, the "nach Meyer" type German flutes mostly/very commonly have significant numbers of these workshop numbering marks on them, on keys, under key-placings on the wood (like the photo you already have) and on end-grain of joints. I could probably rustle up quite a few examples.... but beyond mentioning them and showing samples of typical locations I'm not at all sure there's very much point....... I don't think they tell us very much, so beyond noting the practice and the forms it takes and what it seems to imply about working practices, I doubt there's much to learn from collecting a large corpus of them.


Mostly done, I think, bar the non-"& Co." "Metzler London " for the Marques having Liddle keys flutes list on both the Liddle and Key Stamps pages.

Thanks Patrick. I've incorporated the Carson info. I'm not convinced about his suggested link to D'Almaine. Indeed, I reckon I have a more plausible career path for Liddle, check it out and see what you think.

Terry

I'd like a representative sample. There are a few questions that occur to me such as:
- did the various flute making countries use the marks in the same way?
- what's the highest batch number we can find (ie how big a batch did they work in)?
- are they really Roman numerals? How come we have one marked //// and one ||V (neither of which is a valid Roman number)

So I think we should go on until a pattern emerges.


Mostly done, I think, bar the non-"& Co." "Metzler London " for the Marques having Liddle keys flutes list on both the Liddle and Key Stamps pages.[/quote]

OK, I wasn't sure about how to interpret that, so see if I got it right now.

Very interesting if Liddle also made keys for Metzler pre-Metzler & Co. He was still working for Wood in 1845, well after Metzler became & Co. Also after D'Almaine.

Terry

Looks like you've got the simple fact of the stamp right now and included in both Liddle and Key Stamps lists, though why the * against it on the Liddle page (and against the D'Almaine)?

I'd be very hesitant to assume that the form of the stamp wording is a reliable indicator of age/the flute's place in any sequence - bear in mind that the flute with the plain "Metzler London" stamp is a short(er) scaled one superficially stylistically identical (all the classic Liddle/Metzler features) to the "Metzler & Co. 37 Great Marlborough St." one I photographed it with (see Metzler thread) (given we are, I assume, assuming/positing that shorter scale is probably later.....) - and of course the very different and probably rather later "French style" one has the 37 Gt. Marlborough St. address too!

So you feel your plain Metzler is too similar to the others to have been pre 1837, when the name changed to Metzler & Co? If you look at the Metzler flutes page, http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Metzler_Flutes.htm you'll see that the other plain Metzlers shown are clearly early flutes. Perhaps we should log your plain Metzler in as a seeming stamping anomaly until matters clarify?

(I have yet to bring the Metzler pages up to date, but I have a bass marimba to finish before it is needed in a school concert soon!)

Even if we disregard your plain Metzler, it still leaves us with Carson's D'Almaine having an A.L key well before Liddle went out on his own. Always possible it was a replacement of course. I guess we have to wait to get reports from other D'Almaine owners.

What do people think of the possible Liddle career path I put forward?

Terry

Yes. I think that's a fair angle to take. The use of GS is also usually a sign of later instruments, isn't it (not just Metzler/Liddle)? The pre c1840 ones seem normally to have silver fittings only if multi-keyed and later than the use of flat flap (square or round) brass keys. (From what I can see, the European GS family of alloys such as Alpacca, Maillechort and the Brit equivalents only really got developed from about the 1820s.... and would have taken a while to become generally available and used in wide applications.) We don't see Rudall or Wylde flutes with GS until quite late on........

It seems to me more anomalous to assign that particular flute to an early date on grounds of its maker's marque stamp but despite its construction features than to a late one on grounds of short scale length, use of GS and general style despite the form of the marque wording.

Hi Terry and Mark,

Looking at your post on the Lloyds for a slightly different reason, it's actually of great interest to me personally, as I'm tracing my family tree. The James Lloyd you mention with an Irish wife called Mary who married in Dublin, Ireland in 1845 are my great-grandparents.

Can I please ask what the connection is, if any, between James Lloyd and Alexander Liddle? Are they both flute or flute key makers? If James Lloyd made flute keys, does he have an identifying mark, I wonder.

I'm aware that he was a brass musical instrument maker, as was his son, actually, my paternal grandfather, who was also born in London. I know that James Lloyd Jnr made silver and brass musical instruments for brass bands - trumpets, cornets, trombones, etc. but not flutes as far as I am aware.

You also say James Lloyd Snr was done for stealing brass as well - that's news to me! It certainly puts a new slant on my research!

Any information would be most welcome.

Thanks,
Heather

Hi Heather, it's probably a red herring. Terry was looking for a flute maker called Lloyd. I'm not sure your brass worker would be the one, although it is possible they could have made instrument keys in the shop too, I guess. However, he was the only 'musical' Lloyd I could find in the census records, and no flute makers, but no guarantee it's him. Can't be sure the older Lloyd was related to your Lloyd, might be worth checking though.

Hi Mark
Thank you, that's helpful.
Regards
Heather

Thread revival!

Well, eventually I have got round to doing some photos of flute key stamps.... including the Butler mentioned up-thread. All 4 of its keys are stamped "A.L"

The flute



I am dubious as to whether the head belongs to the body, although it has a matching ring at the socket end and the crown end ring is clearly a replacement. However, this head is unlined and makes the flute seriously HP - which doesn't really make sense with the C#-Eb length of 252mm, and with a suitable head the scaling is just fine at a lower pitch - very playable at c440.

Maker stamp on upper body



The key stamps



Note the exaggeratedly assymmetrical Eb touch!

The Eb touch reminds me of Metzler's design. Did we determen any link between Metzler and Liddle? The head looks like a good match for the Butler, as it was probably a military band flute, didn't need the slide.

Ah, Jon..... no, SFAIK we don't know of any contractual or other (e.g. shared address) connection between Metzler & Liddle, nor any more about whether Metzler actually made anything themselves. We just know many Metzler flutes have A.L stamped keys. But I do think we have amassed enough examples to say the asymmetrical Eb touch is a Liddle feature, not a Metzler one as such. I haven't been to check (no time), but I think we've had examples of Metzler flutes with non-A.L keys which have more "normal" Eb touches......

As for this Butler flute, I remain dubious about the head belonging, though I agree that it might. However, as I said, the scaling of the body would be better with a longer head - it plays much better in tune with itself with one. I also doubt that it would have been a military band flute as, whatever pitch standard it was intended for it wouldn't be an Eb instrument - it is definitely a D one - not normally used in marching bands in the later C19th. More likely it was just an entry-level, low-price instrument with minimal kit.