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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 5:18 am 
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MBalance wrote:
I really don't like plastic, plastic things just feel cheap and out of place. Nice sturdy heavy things are awesome. If you drop something it should go KERPLEW, not plip.

But... with that said I do have a few plastic instruments, after a while I "upgrade" to more heavy ones made out of wood, corian, or metal though.


Sorry, but I disagree with you on sterotyping all plastic as being cheap and out of place. this link is to my current workhorse tenor. http://www.lazarsearlymusic.com/Yamaha-Recorders/yamaha_recorders.htm
It is definitly not inexpensive, nor is it cheap, flimsey or in many groups out of place. Yes hubby was a bit argumentative when I said I wanted it but it most closely represents the build and "handeling" of the tenor I would buy if I wanted to spend $600 or so. There is no upgrade in recorders to corian or metal.
The susato in question was purchased at a reduced price from a C&F member for me to learn on. As I said in my first post, I already have an upgrade to it that I just couldn't play properly and I have high hopes of returning to it soon once I have a few practice weeks on the susato.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:18 am 
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MBalance wrote:
I really don't like plastic, plastic things just feel cheap and out of place.... after a while I "upgrade" to more heavy ones made out of wood, corian, or metal though.
So, is corian, which is yet another acrylic polymer from DuPont, a mo' better plastic? It's still plastic. How about delrin?

Susatos whistles, made of ABS resin, are rock solid, impervious to the elements and will last longer than most of us will. It does not have the condensation issues that aluminum whistles do in cool environments. It does not dent. It does not tarnish or turn green (well at least mine have not after ~16 years). The joints do not sieze up. It does not need lubricating. It does not swell, shrink or crack when the humidity changes. Sounds like a good material for making whistles. The edge of the blade is the only part of a Susato that needs to be guarded against damage.

The Yamaha 300 series recorders are also molded from ABS resin. They are good instruments. (I have a set too.) I would not be surprised if the quality and durability of the Yamaha recorders were the reason that the Kelischeks chose ABS for their whistles.

cutterpup wrote:
I have been trying to work through the low D on my own but my alba is just not that forgiving so I figured the susato would be more forgiving to my attempts....As I said in my first post, I already have an upgrade to it that I just couldn't play properly and I have high hopes of returning to it soon once I have a few practice weeks on the susato.
My prediction is that you will stick with the Susato.

Feadoggie

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 8:46 am 
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This reminds me of a telephone I bought years ago. It had a bit of heft and seemed solid, 4 months later the thing stopped working, and I being the tinkerer I am disassembled it to find a large cast iron weight bolted on the inside. Instead of being over engineered and solid, it was just a marketing gimmick.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:05 am 
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Feadoggie wrote:
MBalance wrote:
I really don't like plastic, plastic things just feel cheap and out of place.... after a while I "upgrade" to more heavy ones made out of wood, corian, or metal though.
So, is corian, which is yet another acrylic polymer from DuPont, a mo' better plastic? It's still plastic. How about delrin?

How about Delrin, then? Since it's denser than most woods (just weighed my two keyless, short-footed D flutes with the Copley Delrin recording 292g compared to the Sweetheart rosewood's 150g!) and plays like a quality hardwood, it's just nonsense to talk of 'upgrading' in the manner implied above...

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The Yamaha 300 series recorders are also molded from ABS resin. They are good instruments. (I have a set too.) I would not be surprised if the quality and durability of the Yamaha recorders were the reason that the Kelischeks chose ABS for their whistles.

Think there are probably enough folk still playing original Aulos ABS recorders (production started October 1966) to vouch for the quality, durability and suitability of the material!

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 9:21 am 
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I thought this thread was about making fun of husbands, not plastic.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:01 am 
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mutepointe wrote:
I thought this thread was about making fun of husbands, not plastic.
It doesn't always go the way you think it might. Does it? :)
Peter Duggan wrote:
Think there are probably enough folk still playing original Aulos ABS recorders (production started October 1966) to vouch for the quality, durability and suitability of the material!
Yes, that's right. And what about the many bakelite instruments before those? Is it wood or is it plastic? Quite a few bakelite Dolmetsch recorders still tooting about. How about the Orkon/Chromette? Anybody want to decry a Burke composite whistle as not being a quality instrument?

Players of plastics unite! :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:05 am 
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mutepointe wrote:
I thought this thread was about making fun of husbands, not plastic.
Feadoggie wrote:
It doesn't always go the way you think it might. Does it? :)
At least nobody has asked if there's a difference...

Best wishes.

Steve

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:12 am 
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I concur.

Players of plastic unite.

I have very few whistles (10) only 2 that are ABS/resin, Dixon DX003D, Susato Kildare, both low D's. Both of these after some modification are the ones I play the most. I also have Aulos descant recorder that I also like.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 10:16 am 
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Feadoggie wrote:
Yes, that's right. And what about the many bakelite instruments before those? Is it wood or is it plastic? Quite a few bakelite Dolmetsch recorders still tooting about. How about the Orkon/Chromette? Anybody want to decry a Burke composite whistle as not being a quality instrument?

Players of plastics unite! :lol:

Feadoggie

I have a bakelite soprano in my collection. I was trying for one of the originals that the UK had packed in their "red cross" packages for WW2 POWs, but couldn't find one for sale so I bought a repro. What's neat is that at the base of the headpiece and then again on the bell it has a slightly flattened area so when laid down it doesn't role. Just for collection reasons I'd love a bakelite Dolmetsch.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 11:38 am 
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Feadoggie wrote:
Yes, that's right. And what about the many bakelite instruments before those? Is it wood or is it plastic?

A plastic that's apparently been around for over 100 years.

Quote:
Quite a few bakelite Dolmetsch recorders still tooting about.

Yep, I've got a few myself, although my first school descant (about 40 years ago) was an ABS Dolmetsch...

cutterpup wrote:
Just for collection reasons I'd love a bakelite Dolmetsch.

Worth keeping an eye on eBay (where I got most of mine), but note that:

1. Some more recent ABS models still get listed as 'bakelite' (saw one like that today, but sure you know what they should look like).
2. The 'same' instrument from different vintages can sound quite different. I've got two (a descant and a treble) just stamped 'patent applied for' and another two (also descant and treble) specifying the material as 'Dolonite', and would say the later 'Dolonite' ones (also marked BS 3499 and, on the descant only, PAT. No 665757) have a tighter, cleaner sound.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:01 pm 
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Feadoggie wrote:
MBalance wrote:
I really don't like plastic, plastic things just feel cheap and out of place.... after a while I "upgrade" to more heavy ones made out of wood, corian, or metal though.
So, is corian, which is yet another acrylic polymer from DuPont, a mo' better plastic? It's still plastic.


Of course there's different grades of plastic. There's no questioning that some plastics have a better feel than other plastics. Polycarbonate vs Corian for example- most people would say the Corian one feels better to hold and play. That's not to say that 1 plays differently than the other one or sounds vastly different, the difference is small in most cases but when it comes to the feel of the instrument, some instrument materials just feel better than others.

I've got a bakelite hulusi that I enjoy playing for example. If someone came up to me and said "Here have a hulusi" with 2 different ones offered- one being bakelite and one being the same model carved out of wood, I'd pick the wooden one. So while I enjoy playing my bakelite one, my friend has a wooden one with a much nicer feel to it with a lot more heft. I'm planning on getting one in the time to come but for now the one I have works rather well for its purposes.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 4:40 pm 
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MBalance wrote:
Polycarbonate vs Corian for example- most people would say the Corian one feels better to hold and play
Polycarbonate .... hhhhmmmmm.... Doesn't Walt Sweet make his Onyx whistles with polycarbonate? Yeah, would most whistle players agree that's no fun to hold or play? Nah! :D

And regarding bakelite, bakelite is wood fibers soaked in a resin. Wood is fibers soaked in cellulose. Here's a definition of cellulose: A carbohydrate that is a polymer composed of glucose units and that is the main component of the cell walls of most plants. So it's nature's plastic pretty much. That's my story anyway, and I'm stickin' to it.

My overall point is that the material is not what makes a whistle's sound or quality. It is the maker, the design and the manufacture of the whistle that conspire to make a quality product. Then it is all up to the player. I've played really good whistles made of plastic, wood and metal. And I've played really bad whistles made of plastic, wood and metal.

Cheers!

Feadoggie

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 18, 2012 6:15 pm 
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MBalance wrote:
a wooden one with a much nicer feel to it with a lot more heft.

Ah, but does all wood (let's say balsa and blackwood) have equal heft? Or all plastic (how about ABS, Bakelite and Delrin)? And did you know that Bakelite (1.362 g/cm³) is pretty well identical in density to African blackwood (1.350 g/cm³), with Delrin (1.420 g/cm³) marginally denser?

Feadoggie wrote:
And regarding bakelite, bakelite is wood fibers soaked in a resin.

Think that's not quite true and, while (as I've just learned tonight) it can have a filler of wooden origin, it's actually a thermosetting plastic made from formaldehyde and phenol.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 11:33 am 
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Feadoggie wrote:
Players of plastics unite! :lol:


:lol: I concur heartily :)

Never understood the bias against something that doesn't degenerate into a horrific mess, but just sits there inertly, living in peace ...


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 20, 2012 12:30 pm 
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mutepointe wrote:
I thought this thread was about making fun of husbands, not plastic.

I was going to say "what about plastic husbands" but realized immediately how that might be taken... um.... carry on making fun of whichever you wish!

although I suppose we could certainly start an argument on using husbands' plastic to buy whistles...!

All of my whistles are metal, and except for my Clarke C, all have plastic heads. (I have to admit that before I knew much about whistles, I leaned toward the Clarkes and Shaws because I thought they were more of "real" whistles and thought the plastic-headed ones were these newfangled things more geared toward kids and n00bs. Now, of course, I know better! [then again, way back in the day I thought whistles were more geared toward kids, too, much like recorders-- I started playing recorder as a kid and knew of plenty of music programs in schools that pretty much consisted of the recorder, and a recorder was pretty much one of those el cheapo instruments people bought their kids to run around the house and blow on as hard and shrilly as possible without actually learning how to play it; I knew few people who played well or still played as adults and figured that but for a precious few, the poor recorder had been relegated to being a "kiddie" instrument...])

Part of me kind of wants to try out a Dixon though, since I've heard so many nice things about them... but no! No! No! Do not need!


gregwhistle wrote:
Feadoggie wrote:
Players of plastics unite! :lol:


:lol: I concur heartily :)

Never understood the bias against something that doesn't degenerate into a horrific mess, but just sits there inertly, living in peace ...

After the apocalypse, the cockroaches will be sitting there playing all our whistles!! :)

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