Just wondering

[Cubitt]

I see a lot of flutes for sale with the sounding length given; why?

Also, what is the interest in flutes in keys other than D? I have recordings of Matt Molloy on Bb and Eb flutes, but I wouldn't know if I weren't told. Seems a pointless expense to me.

[dunnp]

The sounding length is often given with antique sales as it gives a clue of pitch the flute was designed to play in. Though some say its not the best measurement for that purpose but it is the standard.

If your listening to matt molloy and cant tell when hes using a bflat flute than you need to listen harder.

Flutes in different keys are just plain fun. They respond differently. The higher pitch flutes can be faster and more responsive or fun for fifish playing listen to Conal O grada on an F on Top of the Coom.
An E is nice for playing in A using g fingering.
Eflat is the most common id say. Its brighter.
Flutes in c, b, bflat, c sharp are useful for playing with flat pipers, accompanying singers in other keys.
The lowest flute I have is an A which is really a different animal sound wise. Deep is the
word.

An example of when to use a different flute is Black Pats played in f (though now played in g in sessions).
As an exercise playing it in F with keys ona d flute is nice. But pick up the c flute using g fingerings and it just rolls off.
I would use both approaches.
Also lower flutes have to me something special in the second octave. I cant describe it but listen to flat pipes and then concert pipes back to back. Same goes for flutes.

[LorenzoFlute]

I have recordings of Matt Molloy on Bb and Eb flutes, but I wouldn't know if I weren't told.

Listen more carefully.
Though I agree sometimes it's a bit harder with the Eb flute, but when you play it yourself you will feel that the difference with the D flute is remarkable. There are also sessions in Eb, fiddles particularly like to tune sharp, it makes their playing more "crisp". Not that I have the money to buy one...

[dunnp]

Some more examples.
If you play with fiddlers in g minor using a c flute using a minor fingering.
A tune like Eileen Curran, is nice on a d flute with keys or in a minor fingering on a c flute.

Tunes that go below d but are in d can be taken up to g fingering on an a flute and then you have your lower notes.
Neil Gows lament for his second wife is an example sounds nice like this.

Seems going higher was the thing after Molloy/ Peoples in the seventies.
I predict a going lower will be the next new thing after Mick O brien Kitty Lie Over, Deadly Buzz etc. ( its hardly new just being given its turn now)
Concert pipes are relativley new but took over. Now is the age of flat piping as makers are turning to the study of the older makers and I bet fluters in the know if you will, will follow suit.



Sessions in c , b , etc. Are on the horizon.

[kmag]

I agree with dunnp. Amongst pipers in this neck of the woods there a few B sets and seem to have quite an influx of C sets. I think C sessions are going to be more common, around here at least. If you listen to Harry Bradley's site Errant Elbows I think the advantage of the C pipes become more obvious. They are lovely.

[Peter Duggan]

Seems a pointless expense to me.

Same as whistles, recorders, clarinets, saxophones, trumpets, harmonicas or anything else you can get in different sizes, right?

Or are we falling for a genuine troll?

[mutepointe]

Here's a comment from someone with less (no) formal training and who likes the easy way out. Playing in the key of Bb or Eb, even with a keyed flute would be impossible for me. But playing in the key of Bb on a Bb flute would be much easier.

[Cubitt]

Seems a pointless expense to me.

Same as whistles, recorders, clarinets, saxophones, trumpets, harmonicas or anything else you can get in different sizes, right?

Or are we falling for a genuine troll?

Not analogous at all. Saxes differ far more widely in their range. You'd never mistake an alto for a soprano. Harmonicas have to accomodate a wider range of keys. Recorders are pitched like human voices to play in recorder ensembles. Trumpets and clarinets are only rarely pitched out of Bb.

When it comes to recordings, my sense of musical pitch and my ear are just fine. Some say they can detect when a flute is not in D, but I'd be surprised if you can hear something I can't. Now, I have an alto Boehm flute that is pitched a fifth below a concert flute, and that makes a difference. D to Eb? Not so much. Bb, maybe.

I guess for some of the reasons stated, it can be handy to have a flute in an alternate key, but it sure seems like a luxury to me. I can't say I've ever run into a situation where I'd be able to use one. I don't have a problem with it, I'm just asking, but don't make it out to be a stupid question, because it's not.

[jim stone]

What is or isn't a luxury is in the eye (or the pocket book) of the beholder, of course.
As to whether one can't tell that the flute isn't in D, even when you can't tell,
the acoustic qualities of the different pitched flute may make a contribution
to the beauty of the performance. And sometimes surely one can tell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuJqApp5 ... ature=plcp

[mutepointe]

Cubitt, now I'm just wondering. Do you just own the one instrument?

[Peter Duggan]

Saxes differ far more widely in their range.

Thought you might say that, so let's throw the rarer mezzo-soprano and C melody saxes into the mix!

Recorders are pitched like human voices to play in recorder ensembles.

Likewise, ever heard of fourth flutes, sixth flutes etc.? All the rage in the baroque period and very, very different from the regular descant/soprano (fifth flute) despite the mere tone's difference either way.

Trumpets and clarinets are only rarely pitched out of Bb.

Very, very untrue!

Some say they can detect when a flute is not in D, but I'd be surprised if you can hear something I can't.

So be surprised. Be very surprised!

I can't say I've ever run into a situation where I'd be able to use one.

And be content with that if it's saving you the expense!

[Cubitt]

Cubitt, now I'm just wondering. Do you just own the one instrument?

I own a vintage eight-key, two Casey Burns flutes (one with a tuning slide and lined head), a Boehm concert C, the aforementioned alto, some very fine ceramic flutes in A, G, and F made by a great craftsman who is also a personal friend of many years. I also own a clarinet that I no longer play, a very fine turn-of-the-century upright piano (fully restored), a number of whistles (including a Copeland D and a Sweetheart whistle of wood that looks and is voiced like a recorder), and two guitars.

Now when it comes to ITM, I seem to only have use for one flute in D. I have three because as I moved up, I never sold the flute I was essentially replacing (although I sometimes travel with the Burns flute and one of them also makes a good backpack flute). Some posters have joked about their inability to resist getting a new flute from time to time that strikes their fancy or is at a good price, and I wondered if that might account for some members owning flutes in multiple keys more than an actual need or expected use for one. Rather than defending the practice, which does not need defending since I'm not arguing about it, I would be interested to know what members are actually doing with flutes in different keys that take specific advantage of that aspect.

[Cubitt]

What is or isn't a luxury is in the eye (or the pocket book) of the beholder, of course.
As to whether one can't tell that the flute isn't in D, even when you can't tell,
the acoustic qualities of the different pitched flute may make a contribution
to the beauty of the performance. And sometimes surely one can tell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuJqApp5 ... ature=plcp

Yes, I already said Bb should be obvious. Just my opinion, but that clip sounded pretty dismal. Is the lower voice supposed to impart something special? Sounded to me like the player either did not know how to direct the air or the flute demanded more breath than he could provide. Let's not, however, get off track by talking about this performance.

[dunnp]

Another nice use of an eflat is to play with highland pipes.
You play in bflat mixylodian using a mix fingerings as on a d flute.
Similarly a g flute could be used with d small pipes
Or f flute with c smallpipes.

Keep thinking of more, Julia Delaney and other d minor tunes using eminor on a c flute.
There is a tune I play in a with a low c sharp called the Gypsy Girl or somehting like that its an ed reavey I play on an eight key
I just transposed it to d fingering on the low a and I could hit the low note.
And its nice there.

Anyway you get the idea for actual uses playing with others but the main reason is the joy of the different response.

Things like my attempt at Ennis' shiver just come alive on the c flute because I,m used to hearing that ornament on flat pipes.

[jim stone]

What is or isn't a luxury is in the eye (or the pocket book) of the beholder, of course.
As to whether one can't tell that the flute isn't in D, even when you can't tell,
the acoustic qualities of the different pitched flute may make a contribution
to the beauty of the performance. And sometimes surely one can tell:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuJqApp5 ... ature=plcp

Yes, I already said Bb should be obvious. Just my opinion, but that clip sounded pretty dismal. Is the lower voice supposed to impart something special? Sounded to me like the player either did not know how to direct the air or the flute demanded more breath than he could provide. Let's not, however, get off track by talking about this performance.

Well you wrote (first post): 'I have recordings of Matt Molloy on Bb and Eb flutes, but I wouldn't know if I weren't told.'
You did, however, write later 'Bb, maybe.' As said, surely sometimes one can tell. Yes, the player meant the Bb's voice
to impart something special, or at least interesting. Bit of the 'ear of the beholder' operating here, I think. The point
was that it's unmistakably not a D flute.
Here's the same player, using an Eb. You might not tell the
difference if you weren't told, still (I think) the sound has more brightness and vivacity that compliments the tune.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aRbYlC30tlk