Sets, dorian/mixolydian and chord function

[Rhadge]

Hello.

I've been told that a good system for putting together sets is using tunes with the following tonics (in regards to the first tune): I - ii - IV (tonic - subdominant parallell - subdominant). Julia Delaney was mentioned as an example of a minor tune to use between the two major, but when I looked it up later I realized it's a dorian tune, not minor.

So my question is: Does modal tunes fit in with the system of chord functions (like tonic, subdominant and so on)?
That is, can the chord-functional thinking work for modal scales and tunes?

And a related question is, how do accompanists in ITM know what chords to play in a dorian or mixolydian tune? Is it normal to just omit the major/minor third in the chord?


Thanks

[Narsoron]

I'm sure that the Dorian mode would work fine, as Dorian is a minor mode, like Phrygian and Locrian. The only difference is the sharped sixth scale degree which is actually beneficial on instruments like the whistle, where for instance, it would be much easier to play dorian than natural minor. Like on a D whistle, I would much rather be playing in dorian so that i don't have to cross finger to C-natural.

And from my limited experience, the choice to omit the third in the chord really just depends on the accompanist. Some prefer accompaniment to sound more like a drone and omit the third, but others like to have a more full ensemble sound and play them. I don't think that either or is "wrong".

But in answer to your question, yes. Modal tunes do fit into the system of chord functions, it's just that certain chords are changed dependent on what mode one happens to be using. All modes are are slight alterations to basic scales, added for "musical color." They can all be classed into major or minor based on their third scale degrees. Pretty simply, in a major key, five will almost always go to one or six. Minor keys in ITM tend to resolve from the major seven chord to the one.

[Rhadge]

That's great to hear! Makes stuff easier.

Pretty simply, in a major key, five will almost always go to one or six. Minor keys in ITM tend to resolve from the major seven chord to the one.

Are you with "five", "six" and so on referring to scale degrees, or chord functions?

Modal tunes do fit into the system of chord functions, it's just that certain chords are changed dependent on what mode one happens to be using.

Can you give an example of this? It would help a lot.

[Jäger]

It is my belief that you shouldn't rely on any one "system" to make sets. If you make sets that all go I-ii-IV, things will get boring. It's more about how well the melodies fit together, and some tunes just seem to BEG to be played together.

As for the dorian thing. I'm not sure how well you know your modes, but if you're not that comfortable with them, I suggest you read up on them, and things will start to click into place. If you have D major as your tonic (or I), then the ii will naturaly (following the major scale) be dorian. The "regular" minor key, aeolian, would be the vi, or in this case B minor. Since D major has C#, which will be a major 6th in Em, then you will end up in E dorian by default if sticking to the same notes. And dorian is the most common of the minor keys in ITM.

Regarding whether to play dorian or mixolydian is quite easy. Dorian is a minor key, so if the tune is in a minor key, you wouldn't want to play backup in a major key, obviously. Mixolydian is a dominant key, that is a major key with a minor 7th, called a dominant mode (most commonly D major with a C-natural in the melody, less oftenly G major with an F-nat), so basically, you'll want to (more often than not, anyway) play backup in the same mode as the melody is in.


As for Narsoron, I'd just like to straighten some things out here.

I'm sure that the Dorian mode would work fine, as Dorian is a minor mode, like Phrygian and Locrian. The only difference is the sharped sixth scale degree which is actually beneficial on instruments like the whistle, where for instance, it would be much easier to play dorian than natural minor. Like on a D whistle, I would much rather be playing in dorian so that i don't have to cross finger to C-natural.

Locrian is not a minor key. If a key is major or minor is not just decided by the third, but also the fifth and seventh. As Locrian has a flatted fifth, it cannot be a minor key, but a half diminished key (a fully diminished key would also have a flat 7th). And dorian isn't necessarily easier than aeolian. For example, to play B dorian on a D-whistle would require you to half-hole a G#. And let's not go into F# dorian, which would have you half-hole both the G# and the D#.

But in answer to your question, yes. Modal tunes do fit into the system of chord functions, it's just that certain chords are changed dependent on what mode one happens to be using. All modes are are slight alterations to basic scales, added for "musical color." They can all be classed into major or minor based on their third scale degrees. Pretty simply, in a major key, five will almost always go to one or six. Minor keys in ITM tend to resolve from the major seven chord to the one.

Modes are not alterations to a basic scale. They are a basic (ionian) major scale started out on different notes. D ionian, E dorian, F# phrygian, G lydian, A mixolydian, B aeolian and C# locrian, are all the same scale, note wise. There's a reason that they're called "modes" and not "scales". An alteration to a scale is for example harmonic or melodic minor, and their different modes like the phrygian dominant and lydian dominant scales. And again, they're not just either major or minor, and it's not just the third that decides that, but also the fifth and the seventh. The mixolydian scale is a dominant mode, due to the major third, perfect fifth and minor seventh, and the locrian is a half diminished mode, due to the minor third, flat fifth, minor seventh.

Also, when playing ITM in a minor key, you almost NEVER resolve from a major chord in a dominant function (a V chord). I've never come across a minor key tune that would resolve from the major 7th, and extremely rarely the dominant seveth, simply because harmonic or melodic minor scales are pretty much never used in ITM. I've only ever come across a single tune that could, in some phrases, be construed as such, and that was a late composition, that hardly fits into the traditional idiom of playing, called "Gorbachev's Farewell to Lithuania".

Edited for typos and clumsy choices of words.

[Narsoron]

Also, when playing ITM in a minor key, you almost NEVER resolve from a major chord in a dominant function (a V chord). I've never come across a minor key tune that would resolve from the major 7th, and extremely rarely the dominant seveth, simply because harmonic or melodic minor scales are pretty much never used in ITM. I've only ever come across a single tune that could, in some phrases, be construed as such, and that was a late composition, that hardly fits into the traditional idiom of playing, called "Gorbachev's Farewell to Lithuania".

Edited for typos and clumsy choices of words.

What I meant by the major dominant was a major chord built off the seventh scale degree, not a dominant V chord in minor in which the leading tone has been raised to turn the key harmonic. What I meant was in, for example, E minor. A very common resolution would be from the D major chord to the e minor tonic chord, the D major chord being built off the seventh scale degree of the natural minor scale. I'm not an imbecile, I do realize that the harmonic minor scale is not used in ITM.

[Jäger]

Also, when playing ITM in a minor key, you almost NEVER resolve from a major chord in a dominant function (a V chord). I've never come across a minor key tune that would resolve from the major 7th, and extremely rarely the dominant seveth, simply because harmonic or melodic minor scales are pretty much never used in ITM. I've only ever come across a single tune that could, in some phrases, be construed as such, and that was a late composition, that hardly fits into the traditional idiom of playing, called "Gorbachev's Farewell to Lithuania".

Edited for typos and clumsy choices of words.

What I meant by the major dominant was a major chord built off the seventh scale degree, not a dominant V chord in minor in which the leading tone has been raised to turn the key harmonic. What I meant was in, for example, E minor. A very common resolution would be from the D major chord to the e minor tonic chord, the D major chord being built off the seventh scale degree of the natural minor scale. I'm not an imbecile, I do realize that the harmonic minor scale is not used in ITM.

In that case it was just a case of misunderstanding and strange ways of putting it, as a dominant chord is always a V chord, as it is only the V that has the dominant character. D is dominant to G, but not to Em. It is, however, true that the D generally resolves to the Em, but that does not make it a dominant chord. Not to be rude or anything, but I really think you should brush up on your music theory before giving advice to people, as the only thing worse than no advice when starting out is bad/wrong advice.

[Narsoron]

And perhaps you should think about the way you correct people. This is meant to be a friendly help forum, do not insult my intelligence or my music theory knowledge as that is my current major and I am enrolled in advanced music theory. While the seven chord is not referred to as the "dominant" of the scale because it is the fifth of the scale always carries that name, the chord still functions in a dominant manner that tends to lead to the tonic. The reason that it is not characteristically referred to as the "dominant chord" is because the chord with the most stable dominant function is the Major V chord. In ITM that are played in major keys, that is fine. But because ITM does not traditionally use the harmonic minor scale, there is no such thing as a Major V chord in a minor key in ITM. Thus, the seven chord takes over the dominant function. It is not THE DOMINANT CHORD. It is a chord with a DOMINANT FUNCTION. There are less offensive ways to correct people and I pray that you would use a bit of tact the next time you believe yourself to be the end all master of all things music theory. I would also like to point out that if you are indeed from Sweden (I apologize if that is incorrect, that is what I remember it saying from the index page), that it is more than highly likely that you received different instruction than I did, living in America, in music theory. Our systems of learning are stupidly and pointlessly more complex, but that does not mean that they are wrong.

Good day and God bless.

[Narsoron]

And in reference to your dorian mode quip from earlier, I was referring to one key on each instrument-the dorian scale whose tonic is based off the second note from the bottom on the whistle. I know full well that trying to play a dorian key based off any other note on a particular whistle will end in stress. However, in my personal honest opinion, when playing a tune whose tonic is the second lowest note on the whistle, (i.e. E on a D whistle), it is easier to play dorian than natural minor so as to avoid weird cross fingerings.

And Rhadge, if I have confused you in any way about this or have completely destroyed what hope you had in having your question answered properly, I do sincerely apologize. I will not apologize for attempting to help, I will not apologize for repeating what I was taught, and what I know to be correct. But I will apologize for anything that I have done to confuse or upset you.
Your friend,
Narsoron

[benhall.1]

Just a couple of quick points. And, I don't normally do this, but it feels like Narsoron won't believe me unless I give some credentials. Maybe I'm wrong in this, in which case, my apologies. I have a music degree from Cardiff University where I studied under Alun Hoddinott and HC Robbins Landon, amongst others, plus several decades involved in Irish music and reading and absorbing everything I can about modes, tuning systems, music theory, as well as being actively involved in Irish music, leading several classical orchestras, teaching, playing a bit of jazz and playing in many pit orchestras for theatrical productions (Gilbert and Sullivan, shows like The Sound of Music etc) as lead violin (concertmaster).

I don't accept that the chord on the seventh degree of a minor mode acts in a "dominant function" or even that it "leads to the tonic". The dominant function is to do with the way chord movements work in cadences in classical music. In Irish music, and much traditional music from Britain and Ireland, there are not the formal "cadences" in the same way as there are in classical music. It's much more subtle and requires a sort of 'fuzzy logic' to understand it. But even where there is something which one might characterise as some sort of "cadence", they don't work the same way, and it seems to me to be unhelpful, to say the least, to refer to a chord on the seventh degree as "dominant". This is particularly the case, since in medieval Church modes, which are the basis for the modes still used in traditional music from these islands to this day, the word "dominant" generally applies only to the fifth degree of the mode, and never to the seventh. In short, it seems to me to be a misunderstanding of what's going on to apply the term "dominant" to the seventh degree of a mode or to a triad on it.

Secondly, Dorian or natural minor (Aeolian) seems to me to be as easy as each other on whistle. All whistlers, beyond the “Twinkle twinkle” level, have as much facility with C natural as with any other note. It’s simply part of normal, basic whistle technique. Also, on a D whistle, it’s very easy to play in A Dorian - and B natural minor, and even B Dorian, are not too bad.

One last point: I would be careful about what you “know to be correct”, Narsoron. Knowledge is a more slippery thing than many of us realise. For instance, I may think I know about modal music, but maybe it depends on what is meant by that. Am I talking about Church modes? Modes as now used in traditional music? Greek modes (a very different thing)? Or maybe the way the term “modal” was used by early twentieth century classical (for want of a better term) composers? They would all be quite different in some respects. And, as I expect you’re finding with your studies, knowledge keeps changing. No sooner do you “know” something than a different way of thinking about it comes along.

[Jäger]

And perhaps you should think about the way you correct people. This is meant to be a friendly help forum, do not insult my intelligence or my music theory knowledge as that is my current major and I am enrolled in advanced music theory. While the seven chord is not referred to as the "dominant" of the scale because it is the fifth of the scale always carries that name, the chord still functions in a dominant manner that tends to lead to the tonic. The reason that it is not characteristically referred to as the "dominant chord" is because the chord with the most stable dominant function is the Major V chord. In ITM that are played in major keys, that is fine. But because ITM does not traditionally use the harmonic minor scale, there is no such thing as a Major V chord in a minor key in ITM. Thus, the seven chord takes over the dominant function. It is not THE DOMINANT CHORD. It is a chord with a DOMINANT FUNCTION. There are less offensive ways to correct people and I pray that you would use a bit of tact the next time you believe yourself to be the end all master of all things music theory. I would also like to point out that if you are indeed from Sweden (I apologize if that is incorrect, that is what I remember it saying from the index page), that it is more than highly likely that you received different instruction than I did, living in America, in music theory. Our systems of learning are stupidly and pointlessly more complex, but that does not mean that they are wrong.

Good day and God bless.

While I can accept and apologise for a very to-the-point tone of my original post, the "friendly" part of "friendly help" doesn't really enter into it when the "help" is left out, does it? I simply felt that the main thing would be to correct errors. As I said, the only thing worse than no teacher is a bad teacher. And I study advanced composition and arrangement at one of the highest instances of musical education in Sweden, so to compare who's education is better will only end up in a completely pointless d*ck measuring competition that will accomplish nothing at all (and at that, Ben certainly has us both beat anyway).

Beyond that, I will just echo what Ben said, in that, when speaking in terms of ITM, the seventh chord will not be of a dominant function to a minor tonic.

Lastly I would just like to give a thumbs up to Ben for a very good post, clearing a lot of stuff up in a nice, concise manner.

[Rhadge]

Just want to say thanks for your replies. Having only taken a short course in music theory, I'm trying to understand all which has been posted. It will come to me in time.

Jäger, do you know the english word for "ledtonsverkan"? Can't find a translation of it.

[Nanohedron]

And a related question is, how do accompanists in ITM know what chords to play in a dorian or mixolydian tune?

I listen to the melody and get to know it. The tune tells me what goes where, or more properly, what works, and what's out of place. That's it.

I realise the above may not sound helpful, but IMO it's really the final answer, for there is a point where theory cannot save you from this requirement. Having little theory at all to my credit, I must rely on other practicalities, and so for me the guide is this: You cannot back up a tune creditably unless you listen to what each tune says and where it goes, and acknowledge it.

It's actually backward to think that backup is the ground; the reality is that in ITM, the melody is the ground. Melodic runs, arpeggios, and pedal point should be the framework upon which you hang the chord choices you make, because runs and arpeggios and such are essentially chords stretched out in time, already there for you to refer to whether you want to hew close, or intentionally set foot into the outer limits.

Let me preface the following with the acknowledgement that I have a preference for chord formations that tend toward being open, and so I will accordingly speak only in such generalities, and in terms of basics that hew close in a conventional way to the melody. If you have a Dmix tune, you know that your two main defining chords are of course D and C, but if you just mindlessly chonk out D, C, D, C, D, C ad nauseam, this is not going to do the job. And unfortunately, I've heard far too many do exactly that, because they want a formula to fall back on instead of trying to honor the life of the tune. But tunes are not formulaic, or else we wouldn't have so many of them, would we. There's plenty of room for applying G chords in the right places, and a properly placed A would be an absolute requirement if the tune should morph into Dmaj. In Irish tunes that are called "mixolydian" for convenience's sake, this is not uncommon at all.

Personally, if I have any doubt as to how I will make one choice of chord over another, this is often decided by experimenting at home until I come to the final thing. But I can't do that unless I know the tune well, and that means listening. No matter how much theory you have or don't have, I firmly believe that no one is rightly exempt from this.

[Jäger]

Just want to say thanks for your replies. Having only taken a short course in music theory, I'm trying to understand all which has been posted. It will come to me in time.

Jäger, do you know the english word for "ledtonsverkan"? Can't find a translation of it.

It feels like on of those things that are taking upp precious space in the back of my head, but I can't think of it at the moment, sorry. I'll get back to you if I remember!

[LisaD]

I listen to the melody and get to know it. The tune tells me what goes where, or more properly, what works, and what's out of place. That's it.

I realise the above may not sound helpful, but IMO it's really the final answer, for there is a point where theory cannot save you from this requirement. Having little theory at all to my credit, I must rely on other practicalities, and so for me the guide is this: You cannot back up a tune creditably unless you listen to what each tune says and where it goes, and acknowledge it.

There's a lot of interesting information in this thread, much of which I'd like to peruse further when time permits. But it's something of a relief to me (and also makes a lot of sense) to hear the above point of view as well. There is a concertina player at our session who is particularly good at doing what Nanohedron is describing. It has always been curious to me that he can launch into a new tune that is in one of any number of keys/modes (even different tune types) and it's pretty much a wonderful thing every time. I hope I can develop that kind of sense and connection to the music.

[Nanohedron]

You know, Lisa, I don't know what the trick to it is, if there is any. I used to think that since backup is a fairly easy thing for me, therefore it ought to be just as easy for anyone else if they think about it in my terms (How could they not? I'm nothing special); so I was massively dumbfounded that others should have any difficulty at it. Maybe you just have to go through the process of examining tune upon tune, and that's it, for whatever perceived difficulties the exercise presents. It's pretty much the way I do it. But for me it's a pleasure of discovery, therefore no chore, and that may be the difference.

I will say this: every backup player who gets it wrong, even if but for a moment, is not listening but is saddled at that time with a preconception that makes a false start that renders the melody incidental, and that is backward and ego-driven. This goes for me, too. A good backup player, even a supremely skilled master and a performer in equal standing to the melody player, still functions in service to the tune no matter how brilliant, or even enlightening, the presentation. You cannot truly render service when you don't know the needs. I like to think that I know my place.

Just my 2 cents' worth of opinion...