Trad CDs and their Cost

[Brazenkane]

Recently, I was going to purchase a trad CD, and I've just gotta say... after having spend many Euros (and USD) for my own collection, and co-ordinating the spending of thousands of Euros (and USD) on trad CDs, I just feel many (and some would say "ALL) of them are simply over-priced. Too, (re: this CD I was going to purchase), I thought, "well... why don't I just download it?" The cost of the download was €15!!! The download quality was not at the CD bit-rate!

I intimately understand what is involved in recording, editing, mastering, producing, and printing CDs. We're not talking about having to re-coup hundreds of hours of studio time, or thousands spent on pictures, and artwork. The cost of production simply doesn't warrant the charge.

*I'm not talking about Custy's, Ossain, etc....that's a different topic altogether. They've got a storefront to support and some profit needs to be had, and over what the artist is charging (the topic) it ain't that much per unit. So, lets skip that one.

One needs to be able to get their music "out there" and at such high prices, how's that supposed to happen on a decent scale?

Thoughts.....?

[Cathy Wilde]

I share your pain. I feel guilty when I don't pay full freight for a CD but at close to 30 EU with shipping, downloading makes much more sense. And really, the quality's fine for my tastes.

And as for downloads, the Amazon/CD Baby $8.99/$9.99 scheme is much more in my comfort zone. I don't know what Amazon pays the musicians, but their pricing guarantees at least a few purchases from this buyer. i.e., I know people have to make a living, but I figure half a loaf is better than no bread, and I haven't gotten a raise in 10 years!

Meanwhile, thanks for reminding me. Yesterday was payday and Tommy Reck's "Stone in the Field" is earmarked for this month's music mad money.

[Gabriel]

What is a high price for you?

€15 is a so-to-speak standard price for a full length album over here and I think that's okay. You can normally get the same CD as an 8.99€ download via iTunes or Amazon as well (the deal's 70/30 for the musician IIRC), but I prefer the real deal, as I like to put the CD on my shelf and read the booklet. I recently bought an album from a british duo and paid £11 for the physical album *and* a 320kbits MP3 download, which I found quite reasonable.

Having recorded a few CDs myself I know what's involved. What many people forget is the fact that I, being a part-time musician, don't get paid for my studio work when recording a CD. I pay for it. I could work in my day job and earn money during that time, but I don't because I take holidays and record the CD and spend the money I earned on it. And a full time musician who doesn't have a day job not only has to cover the cost of the production, but also has to get that half loaf of bread on his or her family's table. So we're really not talking about getting the production costs back - if that was the single goal, a CD would cost about €6-8, maybe €10 if the musician(s) needed or deliberately took a lot of studio time, paid a professional designer and photographer for the artwork, and paid the collecting company's invoice (which is a major item on the total bill, about 20%, at least in Germany).

Of course I don't know what you were to pay for your trad CD. €15 for a download is certainly quite expensive.

[Brazenkane]

Too, I wonder if the prices are this high, because of this: during the time when CDs were the only way we were hearing "new" music, we were paying "CD prices." What I mean, is that CD prices were not being affected by the download/piracy issue. Therefore, a CD was (approx) 16- €17/$15. Back then, CDs were overpriced e.g.; the true cost to produce them was over inflated. Now we're seeing some trad CDs at €19-22.

For the most part, the piracy issue has not really affected the traditional genre (sans the Chieftains, and perhaps very few others). Most, but not all artists are following this general price point.

What do you think?

[Brazenkane]

Having recorded a few CDs myself I know what's involved. What many people forget is the fact that I, being a part-time musician, don't get paid for my studio work when recording a CD. I pay for it. I could work in my day job and earn money during that time, but I don't because I take holidays and record the CD and spend the money I earned on it. And a full time musician who doesn't have a day job not only has to cover the cost of the production, but also has to get that half loaf of bread on his or her family's table.

.

I can appreciate all that, but the paradigm has changed (for the worst, most musicians might say). Want to earn money as a musician? Pack your instrument, and get on the road. Simply, no longer are the days when recouping CD expenses happen by selling CDs. Mind you, it helps, but the significant chunk of money is to be made performing....that is unless you've chosen not to perform. Now, we're back to your scenario where you're looking to recoup the cash solely by CD sales, so up goes the cost.

Perhaps, if the name is such a draw, the artist can can just sell units based on that....?? Surely, one might sell less €15 downloads no matter who..... yes?

More food for thought..
A pressing of 500 CDs at €18 is €9000. That's quite a few CDs for multiple shops to sell, of one artist (in the trad world). That's a relatively small amount if your on the road. That kinda of cash should most definitely cover the cost of production. That is, unless a limo and catering were used

[Gabriel]

I can appreciate all that, but the paradigm has changed (for the worst, most musicians might say). Want to earn money as a musician? Pack your instrument, and get on the road. Simply, no longer are the days when recouping CD expenses happen by selling CDs. Mind you, it helps, but the significant chunk of money is to be made performing....that is unless you've chosen not to perform.

I don't think it works this way. You do not choose to perform and get money for that decision, you have to pray and beg people for letting you perform by doing a huge load of promotional work NOBODY pays you for. Getting gigs that pay you more than your fuel cost over here is a very major pain in the a**. I recently got a inquiry from an "event management company boss" who wanted to book us (german-scottish band, airlines involved for gigging) for a pub gig, generic "irish evening" as you find them in every pub over the year here. After I sent them an email stating our wages and travel expenses, he replied that they only cover the travel expenses and if we don't play for that money he will have to find someone else (read this in a threatening manner). That is how things are over here.

I'm in the very comfortable position that my three bands bring me about 30-35 gigs per year, and most of them a paid well enough to cover a part of my overall expenses over the year. This costs us hours and hours of unpaid phone calls, writing unpaid letters and years of playing almost-unpaid gigs and unpaid public relations in general to build up the connections. And this is just regular income that I need to make a living, not to recoup CD expenses.

Did I mention that an average band expects about 20% of their total CD amount to be given away free of charge for promotional reasons?

You only seem to see the customer's side of the medal. But there are two sides. If I would sell one of my CDs for 8€ I'd be giving it away free of charge. That's a fact.

Edit:
And just for the fun of it, because you opened that can of worms in your latest edit, here are the roughly estimated costs for a 1000 unit CD production in a four-musician trad band setting:

recording, mixing, mastering at a professional studio: 4000€
artwork design and photographer: 1500€
cd pressing, printing, packaging in a freaking expensive digipak (because customers demand for it): 1500€
GEMA (german IMRO, SUISA; call it whatever you want): depends, between 100€ and 1000€
fuel, accomodation, misc. expenses: 400€

So, after substracting 200 CDs that go away free of charge for promotional reasons we have 7500-8400€ for 800 CDs. Go figure.

[CHasR]

Gabriel speaks the truth.

I just feel many (and some would say "ALL) of them are simply over-priced.

absolutely. they cost more because the productions runs are shorter, and sales will never equal those of, say, Beyonce's. Profitability therefore demands a higher price.

One needs to be able to get their music "out there" and at such high prices, how's that supposed to happen on a decent scale?
Thoughts.....?

I miss record labels. I miss A&R. The new landscape is (by analogy), an overgrown garden with everything from rare orchids to common kudzu competing for sunlight;
as opposed to the former neat(er) competitive displays set up by growers that actually might have had a clue.

I don't know what Amazon pays the musicians,

OMG!! thay actually pay?!?!?
The entire music production and distribution industry is more in flux now than it has been since the advent of 78's and radio, imho. As soon as all the legalities, nuts & bolts and revenue streams of 'streaming' gets ironed down,... lookout. We're not there, yet.

[Brazenkane]

Getting gigs that pay you more than your fuel cost over here is a very major pain in the a**. .
.

Welcome to being a professional musician! It's the same situation anywhere. Start at the bottom, do sh*t gigs (for years sometimes), and if you have many proverbial ducks in a row (including something unique to offer musically that people like), and some luck, you can make some money.....maybe!

[Gabriel]

Been there, done that. Still doesn't pay CD costs.

[Brazenkane]

€15 is a so-to-speak standard price for a full length album over here and I think that's okay..

I just realized I missed this.

€15 is fine. I'm talking about the €18-23 prices.

[Gabriel]

If there was a "like" button I'd press it. However, I still don't think that recouping CD production costs by gigging wages only is a concept that works. And I think €23 for an album is a joke. €18 including shipping is ok.

[Vanzetti]

On a related note, which of the normal methods of purchasing music (CD/MP3) give the best return to the musician?

If I go to a house concert or something similar and I enjoy the music, I try to purchase a CD directly from the performer. Since touring, is often not all that profitable, I feel like it is a "win-win". I get a CD and the performer gets some additional revenue, but outside of a direct purchase from the musician, what method generally gives the best return?

No one is really getting all that rich playing the pipes, so I'd spend a little more if I knew it went more directly to the musician. Or maybe Irish piping is wicked profitable and I'm just a sucker.

[Christian Tietje]

... some points got lost ...

1. Profit
After the band paid 8.000 € for the bare production, let's say they sell 800 CDs of their 1.000 produced items within two years. They sell only on gigs each per 15 € and will get 4.000 € on top of their anyway costs. But not for themselves. First minus 19% taxes (in Germany), rest shared in the band, means 3.361 € divided by four members of the band is 840 € each. Now income wages make minus 30% - 588 € left over in hand. After two years nobody wants the CD any more, makes 588 €/24 months = roundabout 24 € per month. Is that too much?

If they now ever sell another 1.000 items to a distributing company for at expected maximum of 5.000 € the company will put 30% business costs on top, PR, distributing to shops, profit each go for 10 € to the shops. Shop owner puts rent, energy, costs for selling/people, 19% taxes on the price he paid ... I think 15 - 18 € for a trad. CD in a small total amount of printed items is well OK. When the band will ever sell 10.000 the price might go to down to 13...14 € each or so.

2. Pirates
The pirates that tell you it makes now harm to the artist: Each illegal copier & illegal downloader will never buy a real paid CD. But one or two of 10 illegal downloaders would have probably bought a CD if they wouldn't have been able to copy for free. The other eight to nine are worthless regarding business for the musician. So why should anybody apart from the illegal consumer who would anyway never pay like illegal downloads or illegal CD copies.

3. Downloads
Does anybody know how and how much a musician gets money for a downloaded album? And each download prevents a customer from buying a better paid CD.

[dunnp]

I've been using Spotify a great deal. I tend to buy stuff only if its not available on Spotify.
I'm working under he assumption that musicians get some form of compensation from these streaming companies or surely it must be illegal for them to use the tracks.

Does anyone know how it works?

[Lese]

@dunnp

according to wiki it is only 0.164 Cent per stream. Doesn't sound very fair to me.