Playing ITM in extremely noisy settings

[MusicalADD]

Do you ever play in settings that are so noisy you can barely hear your band-mates?
Do you have any tips on how to deal with that much noise?

I'm in a band that plays ITM--mostly fiddle, uillean pipes, bouzouki, and bodhran; mostly dance music, little or no singing. We've been playing in a local bar, mainly for practice as we figure out how best to amplify etc. We have a decent PA system although we aren't experts at using it. For example I've only just this week acquired a (borrowed) pre-amp to use with my bouzouki. So we still have some tweaking to do, gear-wise, but we're getting there.

We're thinking we can probably get a decent gig on St Patrick's Day (or actually, the Saturday before).

But.... the thing is, I've talked with some folks who have played ITM at local pubs around St Patricks' Day, and they describe it as being very crazy, and "so loud you can't hear yourself or your band-mates playing." That part concerns me a little. I definitely prefer to hear my bandmates playing!

I've almost never been in a setting where I couldn't hear my bandmates well, but, when it has happened I've found it very disconcerting. So I'm looking for tips on how to deal with that. Is it all a matter of setting up the monitor so that you CAN hear them?

Any anecdotes, advice, tips, etc. are welcome. Also interested in thoughts on how to deal with the inevitable requests for O Danny Boy!

[fearfaoin]

Is it all a matter of setting up the monitor so that you CAN hear them?

That's the one. And the trick is to get
it loud enough to hear and still avoid
feedback due to the monitor. You may
need to slot out certain frequencies
that are causing feedback. Get there
early enough for an extensive sound
check.

[fiddlerwill]

There are two separate issue here; Acoustic, and amplified.

In my experience not being able to hear yourself is as big a problem amplified. Good personal monitors and the ability to adjust your own mix are the 2 essentials for trouble free amplified gigs.[or a telepathic sound man. ] , they do exist you know!
Acoustic is different totally. Here what you need to do is build out from the center. so if you have a 'leader' then the person next to the leader, follows the leader, and the person on the other side does too. then the folk further down the line follow the person next to them.
If you have 2 leaders they need to be close. and tight. you need to form a solid centre, a cluster.
Now where two people sat next to each other, cant hear themselves properly or the person next to them because of the way their instruments blend. it wont work.
To remedy this you need a backer a Bodhran or guitar IMO and not just any old bodhran or guitar player, but a player who has drive and listens carefully. The backer then followes the lead[and because the instruments are on such different wave lengths ;The backer can hear the tunesmith and vice versa , creating an immediate solid center, around this can be built as many as you need, within reason
Ive been in occasions where a large crowd, 20 30 musicians are playing the two ends of the room can phase shift slowly and this is the point at which a session stops working without a solid center. If there are to many leaders no one gets anywhere.

In this situation what is required is for a single person to keep the beat with a sharp toned high pitched instrument, percussion perhaps ,from the center so both sides can focus on a center and create a unified wall of sound. Bones/ spoons here can be the solution to a problem that is insolvable without them.

Other instruments that might work, depending on how loud the crowd is are a Susato whistle, Gaita, . A loud set of UP might just do it, but quite possibly not.

This is the environment where a loud box cant cut it, where a banjo cant either. where a normal set of UP are drowned out by a crowd boisterous, and drunk and large.

Here a tame guitar player or Bodhran player wont make an indent in the occasion, The guitar[bodhran] here needs to be percussive clipped dynamic and absolutely correct chord and /or rhythmic patterns with dynamic harmonic movement.. This accuracy will entrain the crowds ear. Within a set or two the sound will be obviously well connected and solid, it will be quite clear that there is now a serious occasion.


Its all to do with centering.

[highland-piper]

Wear earplugs. I don't know why, but it helps. They cut the crowd noise more than what's closer to you. Besides, if it's so loud you can't hear yourself on a tin-whistle you need to be wearing the earplugs anyway

When I play my smallpipes with the drones on I can't really hear others, even if there's no noise but the two of us.

After it's over tell us how it went.

[MTGuru]

Wear earplugs.

Funny, that's what I was going to say, too.

The last St. Pat's pub gig I played - full PA and floor monitors - I gave up and resorted to the 30 dB earpugs. I could hear just enough of the piper to follow on whistle or guitar, but the rest became a dull roar. Couldn't hear myself or anyone else at all. A weird experience, but whatever gets you through the night. I was able to concentrate on watching the punters literally roll around on the floor in front of us puking ... all in blissful silence.

This is a situation where in-ear monitors would be a good solution, if you have the need and wherewithal.

[SteveShaw]

I can't think of anything worse than having a bodhran or guitar player leading the music. This music is all about melody, not loud accompaniment (and loud is what it would have to be in order to make the impact that Will mistakenly believes is required). Now I have got some experience of the noisy pub syndrome, and admittedly it's a bit of a bugger, but one thing I have noticed is that you can, if you're not careful, get into a noise-making contest with the pub customers. The louder you play, the louder they shout. It isn't deliberate on their part - they've come out for a few convivial pints with their mates and they don't want to be hassled into silence just because you're playing. Turning up your amp just makes things worse. They just talk louder. A good solution is elusive, but there are things you can do to help. Choose your seating arrangements carefully - I know myself that I'll feel more secure if I can hear just one particular person in our setup who has a rock-solid sense of rhythm. Think about whereabouts in the pub you're sitting - is it the best location for your hearing each other? Sit close together, within reason, facing each other in a sort of open semicircle. The thing to get in perspective is this: if you're all jacking up your amps in order to make yourselves heard above the pub racket, or, worse, relying on some goat-bashing eejit to unite you all, all you're doing is contributing to the pub from hell. It is seriously counter-intuitive I know, but you all need to determine to content yourselves with playing at a volume that you all find comfortable. You don't need to feel you're playing to every far-flung corner in a huge bar. Play for yourselves or for the people who have chosen to be close to the band. You can't do much more to be honest, and if you're getting paid anyway...

[Nanohedron]

We're thinking we can probably get a decent gig on St Patrick's Day (or actually, the Saturday before).

But.... the thing is, I've talked with some folks who have played ITM at local pubs around St Patricks' Day, and they describe it as being very crazy, and "so loud you can't hear yourself or your band-mates playing." That part concerns me a little. I definitely prefer to hear my bandmates playing!

Last St. Paddy's bar gig I did was Hell on Earth. As the night wore on the howling and pandemonium of the patrons (they weren't really an audience after a while) increased to such degree that when we were done, my ears were ringing as if I'd just been to a Death Metal concert. So, I would agree with the earplugs advice just on that count alone.

(EDIT) BTW, Steve, your point about the noise contest is well taken. In this case the noise was getting louder on its own and well beyond the need to hear conversation over amped music. People were shouting to hear themselves over each other. It was barbaric. Of course, from time to time someone actually paying at least a modicum of attention would tell us that they couldn't hear us (meaning the beat, naturally), and, in our acquiescing, so it went. It was a vicious cycle, and we were more or less dragged into it. There was a point where of course we had to put a stop to being part of the arms race, we stopped worrying about trying to hear each other, and just did the best we could. In a normal pub situation it wouldn't have happened so. In a normal pub situation, as I know it, it's not a hoard of super-drunk people howling and screaming and falling down and vomiting and crashing against the stage; in a normal pub situation, if they're not paying attention (which is something I don't mind so much), it's because they're huddled around a table and engaged in solving the world's problems.

After a while we were just there as an incidental but somehow necessary part of the overall picture of drunkenness and mayhem, but in the end the music had nothing to do with anything. People were happy enough that there was just a beat that they could detect. We could have played the Macarena and they wouldn't have noticed or cared. But, hey, money's money...I guess.

What's of greatest importance is that I want to impress upon you the absolute necessity of seeing to it that your instruments remain unmolested in such a no-holds-barred situation as that. During breaks we found we had to have someone, (a band member, for the help had troubles of their own) keep an eye on the stage and keep patrons from climbing up. With a small fortune in instruments and sound gear lying around underfoot, it's pretty alarming when a drunk woman climbs onto the stage and steps and wobbles like a drugged rhinoceros around your delicate and costly pipes and fiddles and gizmos, and just because she wants to bray something into a mike, and thinks it's her right to do so. Kept re-trying when she thought we weren't watching, too. Normally I'm pretty easygoing. Not that time, though. After that incident, I will forever anticipate a similar repeat from someone in similar cups in the future. Mind. Your. Instruments. Yes, sir.

[Pyroh]

Do you ever play in settings that are so noisy you can barely hear your band-mates?
Do you have any tips on how to deal with that much noise?

Just shoot the piper

[Nanohedron]

This is a situation where in-ear monitors would be a good solution, if you have the need and wherewithal.

I have been thinking very hard about getting those, lately.

[MTGuru]

I couldn't agree more with "Watch Your Stuff". Punters have no idea of its value, or don't care, or are too drunk. It's all just pretty props to them. I've had mothers hoist their 2-year old toddlers onto the stage so they could ... explore ... our instruments and equipment. Guys grab my priceless Martin to play "air guitar", or start slobbering into whistles and flutes. Would-be singers knock stands and instruments to the floor while pawing for a microphone. One guy twisted all the pegs on my P-bass when I wasn't looking. Hilarious. I'm sure he was very disappointed when ... thanks to my consummate musicianship ... I figured out on the fly how it had been retuned and just kept playing until I could break and set it right. If there's no security, you've got to do it yourself. The alternatives are unthinkable. Ugh.

Just shoot the piper

Do you mean as in, "Everybody shut up, or the piper gets it!" I'm not so sure that would have the intended effect!

[MTGuru]

I can't think of anything worse than having a bodhran or guitar player leading the music.

Maybe. But in some situations, what you're doing - and what you're getting paid for - ceases to be trad music anyway. You're playing for a crowd that's been weaned on hip-hop and electropop, and all they really want is a beat. You make do, or you walk away.

[fiddlerwill]

Protecting gear on stage! very important, out side gigs and .wind can blast instruments off stand. Happened to me, snapped the bass neck right off!!. And I hate having drunks drool on my shoulder. get a couple mates who can keep an eye on things and help out.
I am an experienced stage manager and I recommend keeping a very firm periphery. if someone invades your pitch, Immediately get up close to them, enough to make them feel a bit uncomfortable, chin down breathe on them. , tell them they have to move now. be firm, dont negotiate, repeat your self untill they leave. Inch by inch they will back off. follow till they are off. then instantly leave to deal with the next problem... .

Have 2 mates who will back you up. if it gets heated, the two mates appear from the sides and you duck out the back[ to deal with the next problem. ]
It is very disconcerting to the punter . one minute he is having a go at one bloke, you, , the next moment there are two completely different guys in his face. He will fold.

Ah the joys of Gigging , takes me back to my youth!

[Denny]

prerecord the last 2/3 of the show

when it gets too loud put in ear plugs & lip synch!

[fiddlerwill]

Ear plugs; there are a number of good quality units at a reasonable price, 20 30 $ , not like fitted pro plugs but they let certain frequencies through. Dont use the cheap bits of foam!

Trouble with in ear monitors is the price, unless they've changed your looking at several grand for a set up. wince...

[SteveShaw]

I can't think of anything worse than having a bodhran or guitar player leading the music.

Maybe. But in some situations, what you're doing - and what you're getting paid for - ceases to be trad music anyway. You're playing for a crowd that's been weaned on hip-hop and electropop, and all they really want is a beat. You make do, or you walk away.

Point taken, but I did say that guitar or bodhran should not be leading. I can't think what kind of miserable band it would be were this to be happening. Have at look at all those Bothies videos on YouTube and tell me who's leading. Answer - no-one is leading.