My question appears at the end of this preface:
I borrowed a Tulla cd from someone in our group and I learned their version of Jenny Picking Cockles by ear on whistle. (I also learned their version of Sligo Maid because it was paired with JPC). Then we wanted our guitarist to learn these two tunes, so we went hunting for the notation on the web and to our surprise could only find JPC in major, not the E minor that The Tulla plays it in. We found a recording we like of JPC in D major (the B part is in F# major) and had no trouble finding notation for this version.
My question is, why did The Tulla Ceili Band convert JPC to E minor? Do ensembles often do this for a particular reason? In my opinion the major version of JPC fits better with The Sligo Maid (which is in what sounds to me like A dorian), than the odd E minor JPC, so it got me to wondering why The Tulla would change the key and mode to JPC....
Lisa
why odd key/mode version of common tune?
Could you gives us a few bars of your JPC, I can't visualise it either in Dmajor or Eminor
Addc AGEF GEcE dEcE [all c's as naturals here]would be the one I am thinking of.
It's a sort of moody modal tune in my estimation which suits the pipes quite well.
The reason for changing the key of a tune can be because it sits well, because it gives a great change from the tune[s] it is played with, because it is fun or whatever.
It's not an uncommon practice, I recently learned a rake of tunes off a tape by the Castle Ceiliband and they made quite a few keychanges, McFadden's Handsome Daughter in G, Humours of Toonagh one tone up from the usual. Worked well.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-09-22 11:33 ]</font>
Addc AGEF GEcE dEcE [all c's as naturals here]would be the one I am thinking of.
It's a sort of moody modal tune in my estimation which suits the pipes quite well.
The reason for changing the key of a tune can be because it sits well, because it gives a great change from the tune[s] it is played with, because it is fun or whatever.
It's not an uncommon practice, I recently learned a rake of tunes off a tape by the Castle Ceiliband and they made quite a few keychanges, McFadden's Handsome Daughter in G, Humours of Toonagh one tone up from the usual. Worked well.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-09-22 11:33 ]</font>
Hi Peter,
Thanks--the e minor one starts ABeedBAF#BAF#dF#eF#dF# and the d major ddCnatAGGF#F#GABCnatAGA, (sorry about my kindergarten ABC).
I'm not so much wondering about changing keys because we do this all the time to accomodate the different ranges of our trio's instruments, but I am really curious about changing the mode and therefore the "mood" of the tune.
Lisa
Thanks--the e minor one starts ABeedBAF#BAF#dF#eF#dF# and the d major ddCnatAGGF#F#GABCnatAGA, (sorry about my kindergarten ABC).
I'm not so much wondering about changing keys because we do this all the time to accomodate the different ranges of our trio's instruments, but I am really curious about changing the mode and therefore the "mood" of the tune.
Lisa
For that aspect you should look at the music of Tommy Potts. He strongly felt that any tune had it's own key in which it spoke best. He had a rigourous and highly personal approach to this but he did open up the area for a lot of other musicians.
In East Clare you had Paddy Canny and Martin Rochford who strongly experimented with this aspect. Martin Rochford any many occasions showed me tunes played in various keys and he knew well how to explain the different moods each had. [there was a good bit of contact between East Clare and Tommy Potts so his influence may well be echoing in the sounds you hear in the Tulla recording].
You can hear similar effect in the fiddling of Bobby Casey etc, My love is in America with the fs flattened etc].
In East Clare you had Paddy Canny and Martin Rochford who strongly experimented with this aspect. Martin Rochford any many occasions showed me tunes played in various keys and he knew well how to explain the different moods each had. [there was a good bit of contact between East Clare and Tommy Potts so his influence may well be echoing in the sounds you hear in the Tulla recording].
You can hear similar effect in the fiddling of Bobby Casey etc, My love is in America with the fs flattened etc].
Thank you Peter!On 2002-09-22 13:59, Peter Laban wrote:
[there was a good bit of contact between East Clare and Tommy Potts so his influence may well be echoing in the sounds you hear in the Tulla recording].
You can hear similar effect in the fiddling of Bobby Casey etc, My love is in America with the fs flattened etc].
I am most interested in the creative leeway among trad musicians.
Lisa
You'll find that there's almost endless room to move in all sorts of directions within the frame work of the music itself, that's what makes the music so interesting.On 2002-09-22 17:30, ysgwd wrote:
I am most interested in the creative leeway among trad musicians.
Lisa
I was going to elaborate a bit more in the last message but a young man knocked on my door for his weekly piping lesson so I was cut short a bit.
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Not only you can change a tune from major to minor (or vice-versa), but you can also (at least on some instruments) use notes not in the tempered scale. We discussed this earlier in a thread about Micho Russell playing Scotch Mary. The "scale" he uses is basicallyOn 2002-09-22 17:30, ysgwd wrote:
I am most interested in the creative leeway among trad musicians.
Lisa
A B "moving C" D E F# G
where the C is sometimes closer to C natural (thus giving a feel of A "minor" Dorian), sometimes closer to C# (as in A "major" mixolydian). As Peter mentioned then, this is common pratice among trad Irish musicians.
One tune I find great for this kind of experimentation is "Toss the feathers". You could play it with major 3rd, minor 3rd, "somewhere-in-between" 3rd, any combination of these, or even with no 3rd at all...
Sylvain
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