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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 9:55 am 
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Howdy y'all,

Was listening to Kevin Crawford's "Crock of Gold" solo(track 10) on Lunasa's Otherworld album recently, and I noticed that he uses a gracenote halfway through the first bar of the second part that sounds extremely effectively. Its like he's just movin' along through the tune and then BOOM-all of sudden he unleashes this gracenote that just blasts out. He uses it to set apart the next phrase, and as I said before, it accomplishes it's purpose extremely well.

Any ideas why this particular gracenote is so good? Or am I hearing things?

If you don't have the CD, you can listen to it online at http://www.greenlinnet.com . I don't think it's in the 'Listen' section though, you'll have to search for 'Otherworld' and access the audio through that. Better yet, if you have Flash you can go to http://www.lunasa.ie , get onto the albums pages, click on Otherworld, and listen to the particuliar track I'm talking about. The sound quality isn't good, but it gets the point across.

Nate
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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: energy on 2002-08-28 11:58 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 11:07 am 
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Can you post the time in seconds into the track this occurs? I just listened and I hear a roll that doesn't particularly stand out to me in the measure I think you mean.

Wow, do I love that track...


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 12:46 pm 
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The cut is right after the roll. I can't post the seconds because I don't actually have the CD. There's a lot of (legal)music online, you know.

As he starts the second part, he plays a note(I don't know the pitch) and then plays the roll and then immediately following is the cut. Sorry for this poor description, but I have been insuccesful at finding out pitch(any help?).

Nate


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 1:23 pm 
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Hmmm, I don't hear the roll as the end of a phrase at all. Don't know whether you're hearing things or I'm being oblivious.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 28, 2002 10:27 pm 
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Well, it definitely sounds to me like a separate phrase, but who am I to say so?

You do hear the cut, though, right? What do you think the cut is there for?

And Colomon, I notice that you're from Ann Arbor. Thats Pub Domain country, isn't it? I heard them at the Roscoe Celtic Fest; I was stunned. They were truly elctrifying, in fact I believe they were as good as anyone at the Milwaukee Irish Fest. Looking forward to seeing them again at the Chicago Celtic Fest.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: energy on 2002-08-29 00:29 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: energy on 2002-08-29 00:33 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2002 5:22 am 
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Technically speaking 4/5ths of Pub Domain live an hour away from here in Lansing, and that's where the band's based. On the other hand, the one member who lives here is a good friend; gave her a ride home from the airport last night.

They are playing a free show in Ann Arbor from 6-9 tonight!

err... in a vague effect to make this on topic, I'll point out that the band are great Lunasa fans, and various members can be seen a number of times in pictures on the Lunasa web site.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2002 5:40 am 
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Okay, I've ripped the track and isolated the bar I'm talking about. I want to check and see if it's the same one you're talking about.

http://www.harmonyware.com/tunes/Crock.mp3


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2002 7:19 am 
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Col,
I listened to you little bar there, and I know the CD pretty well (don't have it right here, though). If I got that right, Kevin takes a breath and then starts the next note with a tounged (double) cut. I guess you'd notate it something like this (I think the note is an a, but I am at the office and can't really check :wink: )

{ab}.a...

Tonguing cuts is really effective for emphasis (but is easily overdone). Bro Steve discusses it. I think a big part of the reason Kevin tongues it here is that he has just taken a breath. Start of a tune and after breaths/rests are places that should always be tongued, I think.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2002 8:47 am 
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Agreed on the breath, and I'll buy the double-grace notion. (I can't really tell at that tempo.) But my impression was that breath is in the next measure rahter than the one energy is talking about. Thus my confusion.

In other words, the first measure of the B-part as Kevin plays it (minus grace notes) is e~a3 bage (or something like that), then he plays the "a" which starts the next measure, takes a breath, and starts the next phrase with a grace into the next note after the breath.

energy specified first measure and immediately after the roll, which is why I've been trying to pin down where it happens, because I don't notice anything especially noteworthy about the second beat of that first measure.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2002 9:55 am 
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On 2002-08-29 10:47, colomon wrote:

energy specified first measure and immediately after the roll, which is why I've been trying to pin down where it happens, because I don't notice anything especially noteworthy about the second beat of that first measure.

I'm with you. Confused now, too. I assumed he was talking about the gracenote(s) after the breath b/c he mentioned separating phrases, and the all of the first measure is part of one phrase, I think.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 29, 2002 3:52 pm 
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Okay, I think we are talking about the same phrase, and I'm probably hearing things. I'm hearing a cut on the second beat of the first measure. I'm not talking about the double cut after he takes a breath.

However, I think I figured out the part I'm talking about. I believe it goes:

|ea3 bagb|a2

I can understad seeing this is as one phrase. I am hearing three parts to it, though. They divide up this way: ea3 bag ba2

The cut I'm hearing is like so:

|ea3 {c#}bagb|a2

Does anyone else hear this cut? Or if there isn't a cut, what is there? Or maybe I'm a loon who is hearing things?

Nate

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: energy on 2002-08-29 17:55 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2002 10:43 am 
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Well, I don't know about your idea of the phrasing, but I slowed down the track and you're absolutely right, he plays the high A roll and then graces into the high B that follows. I think maybe he also tongues that note, or does a glottal stop, or something to get an extra burst of air in there, too. It's a nice extra kick to the tune. Great catch.

http://www.harmonyware.com/tunes/Crock-slow.mp3


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2002 3:21 pm 
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Whew, I'm relieved...I had started to believe that I really was hearing things.

About my idea of the phrasing, which I would like to revise slighly so it is now like so:

ea3 bagb a2

The e provides a launch pad for the a3, which is dwelt on to establish it as the primary note(or resolve note, or basic premise, etc.) Then a slight tension is introduced by basing the next phrase on the second(b), and it is resolved by the return to the a. Anyway, this is just a rough-hewn idea and I'm not really concerned about it. Different people will see passages of tunes different ways.

I've noticed a similiarity of the cut(ya' know, _the_ cut) to two others, from the playing of Seamus Ennis. I've got a recordng of him playing The Rainy Day/The Merry Blacksmith/The Silver Spear.

In the Silver Spear, first measure, a very similiar situation. The tune is like so:

|FA3 BAFA|

He places a cut like so:

|FA3 {C#}BAFA|

I think it creates the same effect as in the 'Crock of Gold.' This is not surprising considering the similiarities, but at the same time I find it interesting. Also, for the Merry Blacksmith, Ennis plays it like so:

|d2dA {C#}BAFA}

The melody is less similiar(to 'Crock') this time, but it's still close and the effect is the same.

Notice that all three cuts are placed on a descending 'phrase'(for lack of a better word). This to my ears consistently inserts extra power or drive into the tune.

Nate



<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: energy on 2002-08-30 17:26 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: energy on 2002-08-30 17:37 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2002 3:32 pm 
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And how was the Pub Domain concert?(were you at it?) Wish I coulda' been there...(prolonged sigh) :smile:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 30, 2002 9:09 pm 
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The Pub Domain concert was great, maybe the best I've ever heard from them. Lots of really nice harmony stuff that wasn't there six months ago. A bunch of stuff I hadn't heard before -- a couple of new tune sets, a song they nicked from Old Blind Dogs, and this wild heavy set they got from Hoven Droven to end the show.


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