Fiddle, anyone?

Isilwen · Post by **Isilwen** » Tue Aug 13, 2002 3:18 pm

I've recently re-taken up the Violin, and decided that since I had to practice anyway, why not do some Irish/celtic fiddle stuff?

Problem is, I can't seem to master the "staccato-type" bowing that's common to the Donegal area (well, I can do that bowing, I just can't seem to get the speed to go with it w/out sounding sloppy), and the "smooth-slurred" style doesn't seem to work either. Granted, it could be because all I've ever done on the Violin has been classical, and I just don't have the knack for Fiddle. Any advice?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: The Whistling Elf on 2002-08-13 17:19 ]</font>

StevieJ · Post by **StevieJ** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 7:23 am

On 2002-08-13 17:18, The Whistling Elf wrote:
I've recently re-taken up the Violin, and decided that since I had to practice anyway, why not do some Irish/celtic fiddle stuff?

Problem is, I can't seem to master the "staccato-type" bowing that's common to the Donegal area (well, I can do that bowing, I just can't seem to get the speed to go with it w/out sounding sloppy), and the "smooth-slurred" style doesn't seem to work either. Granted, it could be because all I've ever done on the Violin has been classical, and I just don't have the knack for Fiddle. Any advice?

Speaking as one who turned to fiddle after classical lessons as a child, and then played Irish music on fiddle for over 20 years: it's a long journey.

I don't know what level you're at, but I'd say, honestly, if you want to play Irish music seriously, it's very difficult to master the style if you're working on your classical technique at the same time. I've found, from my personal experience and from teaching, that the biggest problem people who have studied violin face when they decide to take up Irish music is that they assume they know everything already. Which of course, as any traditional musician listening to them could tell them, is a very very long way from the truth.

Since you say you would like to learn about bowing styles, maybe this isn't the case with you, though. On that point, I don't know where you got the idea that Donegal fiddlers play staccato. They do tend to use more single-note bow strokes than fiddlers elsewhere in Ireland, but Donegal players use many different styles. Generalizations such as "Donegal fiddlers play one note per bow" are not only inaccurate but dangerous, because hearing them people go off, play one note per bow, and imagine they are playing "Donegal style".

Really, the only way to attack Irish music on the fiddle is to do it properly, and that means an lot - and awful lot - of listening to good players. A teacher can help too, but a teacher won't free you from the requirement to listen. There are tutor books such as the one by Matt Cranitch or the one by Pete Cooper which can provide help with bowing techniques, but again, they will only help if you are listening very seriously and trying to reproduce what you hear.

This is not intended to be discouraging, but it's the way I see it. I would probably have become a presentable fiddler much faster if I had had such advice (and followed it). Good luck.

S

DazedinLA · Post by **DazedinLA** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 8:06 am

Welcome to the Dark Side, Elf!

Cooper's tutorial is excellent. He covers most of the standby tunes you already know, but he does a good job of easing you into different bowing styles and patterns. I've found it interesting to see how differently I approach tunes I know on whistle once I start trying to attack them on fiddle.

There is an accompanying CD but I need to figure out how to get it. Lately I've just been buying fiddle CDs and listening to them a lot. Im close to having worn out my Molloy/Brady/Peoples CD, for example. Im looking forward to getting some Coleman and Morrison CDs from Topic Records.

Bartleby · Post by **Bartleby** » Wed Aug 14, 2002 8:19 am

I don't know what level you're at, but in my experience, as the old saying goes, you've got to "crawl before you walk." I agree with what Stevie J. says about listening to fiddle music, but much of it's played so fast it's way beyond the level of most beginner or even intermediate fiddlers. Irish fiddlers are masters of their instrument, and to play Irish jigs and reels at full speed is, to me, going to the highest level of fiddling. Having said that, there's a lot of Irish music that is not extremely difficult, like ballads or airs. Try mastering "Cockles and Mussels" before going to "The Mason's Apron." This advice is coming from another frustrated fiddler.

Doc Jones · Post by **Doc Jones** » Sun Aug 18, 2002 3:33 pm

I agree with the above Elf. Listen, listen, listen...and watch!

As for the Donegal style, why would you want to master that when everyone knows that the truly great fiddling is happening in Sligo?

Doc

Martin Milner · Post by **Martin Milner** » Tue Aug 20, 2002 5:18 am

The first time I was ever in Ireland was for a wedding in Glenties, Donegal.

The Friday evening, there was quite a knees up under way in the Hotel, and various players were taking the stage & doing their party pieces.

A fiddle player came on who was 80 if he was a day, and a total master of his craft. One time I looked over, and he was holding the bow between his knees and the fiddle in his hands! I couldn't tell any difference from when he had been playing normally!

Is that the true Donegal style?

p.s. I was very, very drunk at the time.

steve · Post by **steve** » Tue Aug 20, 2002 11:49 am

To Dazed in La - The Cd for the Cooper book is available through Elderly Music. It is actually a two CD set. Not only can you practice fiddle with it, but you can play along with your whistle.
Maybe someone can help me with two questions I have about Irish Fiddle - Is there any advantage to holding the bow so far away from the frog? and is a heavy deposit of rosin on the violin a badge of honor? I had heard that you don't want rosi buildup on your strings or fiddle. Thanks - Steve

Walden · Post by **Walden** » Thu Aug 29, 2002 5:05 pm

On 2002-08-14 10:19, Bartleby wrote:
I don't know what level you're at, but in my experience, as the old saying goes, you've got to "crawl before you walk." I agree with what Stevie J. says about listening to fiddle music, but much of it's played so fast it's way beyond the level of most beginner or even intermediate fiddlers.

When I was a teenager, I started taking up the fiddle. My grandfather went down to the barber shop and told the barber I had learned to play the fiddle. Next time I went for a haircut the barber pulled out a fiddle, and a fiddler, who was there started playing some 150 M.P.H. reel that would have impressed a die-hard hater of traditional music. Then he handed me the fiddle, and said "now you play." They prodded and prodded me to play for them. I quit playing the fiddle then.

Nutsmuggler · Post by **Nutsmuggler** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 4:12 am

Well, as banal as it may seem, play everything as slow as you can; this will help you getting the lift.

Then, of course, everyone knows that the best fiddle playing is down County Clare

DazedinLA · Post by **DazedinLA** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 8:46 am

Thanks steve, I'll check it out. Do you like the CDs? Do you think they're worthwhile? Some tutorial cds are, well, shall we say, not as helpful as duck taping Molly Peoples Brady into my CD Walkman and ducktaping the headphones to your head. God I love that CD.

energy · Post by **energy** » Fri Aug 30, 2002 4:18 pm

On 2002-08-30 06:12, Nutsmuggler wrote:
Then, of course, everyone knows that the best fiddle playing is down County Clare

No, actually it's all down south in the Sliabh Luachra...

steve wrote:
Maybe someone can help me with two questions I have about Irish Fiddle - Is there any advantage to holding the bow so far away from the frog?

Well, I hold the bow away from the frog a bit, it feels more balanced to me that way. However, it's really just a matter of personal preference, however it feels comfortable to you.

and is a heavy deposit of rosin on the violin a badge of honor? I had heard that you don't want rosi buildup on your strings or fiddle. Thanks - Steve

Funny you should bring this up, rosin doesn't stick to my fiddle. Alas, when I see fiddle players with rosin all over their fiddle I can only stare on in helpless jealousy...it just looks so 'cool', ya' know? My only hope is rubbing rosin directly on the fiddle-

As to whether rosin buildup is desirable, I don't really know. If it affects tone then you don't want it of course but besides that I can't think of any reason.

Ohh, I've got an idea! I should should put double sided tape on my fiddle to get the rosin to stick...

Nate

Jo C · Post by **Jo C** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 1:47 pm

Rosin wrecks the varnish on the fiddle and the bow and makes the strings sound a lot less 'clean'. The varnish thing can decrease the value of your fiddle quite a bit. But, if you still want it, then put loads of rosin on your bow every time you play - oh, and get a decent quality rosin - I like szigeti.

Jo.

whistlingfiddler · Post by **whistlingfiddler** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 5:12 pm

I've been playing fiddle for 14 months. I'd never done classical violin or anything, but after seeing Winifred Horan I really wanted to play fiddle. So now my repertoire is roughly 40 tunes. I'm not sure if that's a lot or a little, considering what little time I've been playing. It's gotten to the point where I play fiddle more than my whistles. I'm currently going to a performing arts high school, and this girl who plays classical violin will not stop bothering me about my "intonation." She'll look at my fingers and tell me "you're flat" or she'll actually move my fingers for me and the note will sound exactly the same. I've heard her play "American Wake" from Riverdance, and she does it in this strange way. She doesn't seem to understand the concept of slurs. Another classical pianist told me "You have to start with the basics (classical music) before you move on to other things." Well I've never done classical and I'm just fine. ok enough rambling.

As for rosin, one teacher told me not to leave it on the fingerboard because it damages the ebony. I don't get too much rosin on there.

energy · Post by **energy** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 5:58 pm

On 2002-09-02 19:12, whistlingfiddler wrote:
I've been playing fiddle for 14 months. I'd never done classical violin or anything, but after seeing Winifred Horan I really wanted to play fiddle. So now my repertoire is roughly 40 tunes. I'm not sure if that's a lot or a little, considering what little time I've been playing. It's gotten to the point where I play fiddle more than my whistles. I'm currently going to a performing arts high school, and this girl who plays classical violin will not stop bothering me about my "intonation." She'll look at my fingers and tell me "you're flat" or she'll actually move my fingers for me and the note will sound exactly the same. I've heard her play "American Wake" from Riverdance, and she does it in this strange way. She doesn't seem to understand the concept of slurs. Another classical pianist told me "You have to start with the basics (classical music) before you move on to other things." Well I've never done classical and I'm just fine. ok enough rambling.

You made me think of a story off on Brother Steve's(StevieJ on the message board)website:

A few years ago a conservatory-trained violinist started appearing at sessions in our city. Seeing that, despite his enormous command of the violin, he hadn't really understood what traditional music was all about, someone suggested he consider taking classes at the Willie Clancy summer school in Co. Clare, which he was planning to visit with friends. After attending an opening concert at which many of the fiddle teachers performed, he reportedly announced that he hadn't signed up for classes because he "couldn't find a teacher who could play in tune." :roll:

However, did you know that Win Horan was trained classiscally? I have heard of other Irish fiddlers making the same switch; Claie Garrard of Broderick for one; Tahmineh Gueramy of Pub Domain, but you probably haven't heard of her(awesome fiddler!); and of course, Sean McGuire. There are others, but they don't come to mind right at the moment.

Nate

whistlingfiddler · Post by **whistlingfiddler** » Mon Sep 02, 2002 7:40 pm

On 2002-09-02 19:58, energy wrote:

However, did you know that Win Horan was trained classiscally? I have heard of other Irish fiddlers making the same switch; Claie Garrard of Broderick for one; Tahmineh Gueramy of Pub Domain, but you probably haven't heard of her(awesome fiddler!); and of course, Sean McGuire. There are others, but they don't come to mind right at the moment.

Nate

Yeah Win graduated from the Boston Conservatory. You can kind of sense the classical element in her playing, but it doesn't take over the tune like so many people I know. I personally have never had an interest in classical music. Most of the melodies are hard to follow, like one minute it's really happy and the next, it's sad and dreary. I think musicians need to connect with the music, and I just don't connect with classical. Everyone's telling me to buck up and get ready for this school year, apparently classical and jazz is all I'll be learning. This is a special program though, and if I wanted to do classical, I could just join the school band you know? At least I can play trad. songs at the recitals.

One thing that really bugs me is people calling my instrument a violin. Don't ask why, it just bothers me. Like when my family tells their friends "Erik plays the violin," then I play some reels, and it's not what they were expecting. It's really weird, everytime people call it a violin I say "Fiddle." I play traditional not classical! My dad went to a parent orientation for our school, and one of the moms told me "He said you play violin?" I was like "Don't say that!!" He didn't even bother to mention the whistles, bodhrán, mandolin, dobro....and don't get me started on those who call my whistles "flutes"