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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:57 am 
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On 2002-08-22 21:34, John-N wrote:
I agree that it seems contrary to the tradition that anyone would cause trouble if someone performed or recorded an "established" tune, like the ones in O'Neill's.

If I were to compose a tune that was well liked and played in sessions and recorded I personally would be happy with the satisfaction that it was well received, and wouldn't expect to be paid royalties. But then again I've got a day-job and don't depend on royalties for any sort of living.

My guess is that copyright issues probably are only a serious concern if we attempt to use music recently composed by well-known bands/artists who are signed with a record label.

I would like to think that were so. But it's happened so many times down through the years, that people have sued over songs or tunes they owned the copyright on (quite possibly not the composerr, but an heir interested only in the money) that the performer perhaps wasn't even aware was a "composed" tune. It is much safer (and legal) to get written permission before recording and publishing any copyrighted tune.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2002 4:27 am 
Could Walden enlighten us with one or two examples regarding the music we are talking about here, please.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2002 8:09 am 
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Yes, I'd like to hear that as well. And after, could we PLEASE get back on track and quit beating an off-topic dead horse?

Teri


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 23, 2002 11:26 pm 
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I'm just saying that it's a good idea to stay within the law and get permission from a copyright holder before making a recording of a copyrighted tune. If, as is hopefully the case, he grants permission without demanding royalties, you will at least have done the right thing.

I do not think that it is necessary to get permission to do a not-for-profit live performance, however.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 1:56 am 
I know what you are saying but you can't seem to be able to see what I am saying, i.e. that this music works differently.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 2:23 am 
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On 2002-08-24 03:56, Peter Laban wrote:

this music works differently.


Perhaps it does, but the laws apply in the same manner to all music. Most truly traditional music isn't copyrighted in the first place, and thus there are no copyright issues anyway, as it is in the public domain--it belongs to everyone. But if one wishes to perform copyrighted music for profit or to record or publish it, the law is plain that one must get permission from the copyright owner.

If no copyright claim is made, there is no issue. If the author is anonymous (at least if he remains so), there is no copyright issue. But if a tune is copyighted, you must obtain permission before recording and selling it.

What harm could come of seeking the written permission the law requires of those who would record music covered by valid copyright?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Walden on 2002-08-24 04:39 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 24, 2002 10:23 pm 
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Just a thought, The best places for musicians to get info re copyright as well as checking out current government legislation, would be the established recording/publishing companies dealing with trad music. I did not realise how important their role is until I had occasion to use them. It is a vital part of their business to deal with these issues on behalf of copyright owners and artists thereby leaving the musician free to create. Thats the way it should be, so now I ain't worried and I feel the benefit of being better informed than I was before. On composing original trad music,If I go through the painstaking process of learning trad music that is passed down through generation and through sessions etc, then eventually start to write my own tunes, then I would consider them to be of trad origin cos thats where my roots are and thats where the inspiration comes from to write them even though they may relate to the present day. I would also consider that we should all make the effort to make sure a composer is credited with his work, especially if he/she has to earn an income from it but also to pass down to future generations, who would have the benefit of more accurate records to study and learn from, to keep the tradition going. My final thought would be, that while I agree that trad tunes have a 'life of their own', I still have to consider that, If I write a tune, I have to believe that it is good enough in the first place without anyone else adding to it. If I was to hear my tune being played or perhaps a different and possibly even better version of my tune, then great!! this means that my tune was good enough to inspire some other trad player, this would keep the tradition going! in the way that it should.

Whet your whistle folks! cheers
Niv


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 1:35 am 
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I have written a few tunes myself, several of which have been recorded by other musicians. I was always just delighted if someone else took the trouble to learn something of mine. I think that in Ireland this would be the general attitude. The money from royalties is very small, it's that little bit of recognition that counts. There was a tv series on rte a few years ago called a river of sound. In it they included three tunes of mine played on the harp. Of course I was delighted. However when it was released on BBC video they acredited my tunes to Turlough O'Carolan! Although I still got the royalties I would much prefer to have had my name where it was supposed to be! As I say royalties tend to be pretty small but having them registered with IMRO ect just gives you that protection if one day you watch a movie and something you wrote turns up on the soundtrack. Another point of interest is that in Ireland if you record a CD and you record a set of trad tunes, for example The lark in the morning Coppers and Brass, you can register these tunes as "trad.aranged by Joe Blogs". This gives you exactly the same royalties as if you composed them yourself!


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 9:16 am 
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On 2002-08-24 04:23, Walden wrote:

Perhaps it does, but the laws apply in the same manner to all music. Most truly traditional music isn't copyrighted in the first place, and thus there are no copyright issues anyway, as it is in the public domain--it belongs to everyone. But if one wishes to perform copyrighted music for profit or to record or publish it, the law is plain that one must get permission from the copyright owner.

Walden, first of all US laws do not apply to all music. And no matter what law applies, I think what Peter is saying is that it is part of *this* music that composers tend to place their tunes into the public domaine.

Also, I don't think you've quite understood how copyright works. You don't "copyright" a tune. You compose a tune. And if you do, you have the copyright. You can register a copyright, and if you do, suing infringers and collecting royalties get's easier. But that's it. You can see how this way of looking at "rights" to a tune doesn't fit with a tradition that regards it as part of a tune that it gets played by many different players with different styles and variations.

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On 2002-08-24 04:23, Walden wrote:

What harm could come of seeking the written permission the law requires of those who would record music covered by valid copyright?

The harm could be that people lose sight of the vital process by which traditional music lives and breathes and stays alive.

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On 2002-08-24 01:26, Walden wrote:
I'm just saying that it's a good idea to stay within the law ...

You know, it's funny. I have been thinking about that one for years now, and I have found that whenever it counts, there's no easy answer to the question whether it's a good ideas to stay within the law or not.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2002 4:47 pm 
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The harm could be that people lose sight of the vital process by which traditional music lives and breathes and stays alive.

That was my point in bringing up this topic in the first place. Folk music, like language, is evolving and influenced by many factors. It would be a shame if commercialism and marketing become major forces in guiding the development of the 'tradition,' which would effectively cease to become traditional. (More like Country & Western/Nashville vs Americal folk). Scary. It goes back to the consensus attitude on this subject, not what the law actually states. Brendan's response was beautiful and informative. This isn't a musical genre people go into for the money, though, is it?
Tony

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