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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2002 10:55 am 
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Hey, great move, people, I love the concept of this new forum.

One thing that would be cool (Im from California, Im allowed to use terms like this, its my birthright) would be a thread that has links to MP3 files that are good examples of each of the "styles" of IrTrad music. I know copyright are issues, so maybe its something that the Learned Ones can record and post.

I hear a lot about Donnegal style vs. Sligo style vs. County Mayo vs. whatever. I know there are discographies out htere that kinda delineate this, and Im trying on my own to acquuire CDs and stuff, but it would be cool on this board if we could work together to create a list of the different style and try to get MP3s as samples of each of these styles.

Advantages: we all are sure we know what werre talking about when we talk about these things (I know Peter and folks know this stuff, but you'r gonna have a bunch of newbies like me jumping up and down asking questions on these styles and maybe it would help).

And I dont think it all has to be whistle. I'd acutally love some samples in fiddle, and whatever else...I guess its just a matter of getting ahold of noncopyrighted material.

Is this a good idea, or am I benefitting from the resiudual effects of some halluecenogenic substance afloat in my building's ventilation system?

Kevin

P.S. Was that sex book written and illustrated by A. Corr?


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2002 11:24 am 
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On 2002-07-31 12:55, DazedinLA wrote:
Advantages: we all are sure we know what werre talking about when we talk about these things (I know Peter and folks know this stuff, but you'r gonna have a bunch of newbies like me jumping up and down asking questions on these styles and maybe it would help).

And I dont think it all has to be whistle. I'd acutally love some samples in fiddle, and whatever else...I guess its just a matter of getting ahold of noncopyrighted material.

Kevin


Well, on the last item, I have [literally] a suitcase full of non copyrighted tapes of all sorts so that shouldn't tbew the problem. The problem could be that there are so many different styles, if I think of whistleplayers in Co Clare and limiting it again to an earlier generation there is a vast difference between say, Willie Clancy, Micho Russell, Joe Bane, Gussie Russell, Paddy Mullins. Only to name a few that have come up over the past while. All Clare and sharing some characteristics, yet all also very different. It would not be the easiest task to compile a field guide to different styles, there is an awful lot of material commercially available and I think everybody should try to listen to anything they can get their hands and take it from there. It's a slow process and I am not sure we can provide the quick way.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2002 12:04 pm 
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O<, then maybe some discussions of your thoughts on who are the best examples to look at for the major styles...

And again I dont mean just whistles. I had a tough time finding recordings of Michael Coleman, and had to post to get help finding it. I imagine the others are somewhat easier to find.

I for one would love to hear peoples thoughts on what they think are good exampleso f this or that style, and maybe having an ongoing thread lets people toss in their 20 pesos whenever it strikes them.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2002 12:18 pm 
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Here's a place with one perspective on the basics (flute oriented), including brief descriptions and naming examples of players within a style: http://www.oblique-design.demon.co.uk/flow/index.html

Loren


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2002 12:49 pm 
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In my opinion, the regional styles are defined by their great fiddlers. This is only my opinion, however, and a debate entirely in of itself. But here's a quick rundown of who I consider the definetive fiddlers:

Donegal-Johnny Doherty

Sligo-Michael Coleman...although some are of the opinion he didn't play true Sligo style, but more of a Sligo-Clare hybrid.

East Galway-Paddy Fahy, but truth be told, I consider the great flute player Paddy Carty to be the "definition"(in a loose sense)of this style. I must confess I have not been able to find any recordings of Paddy Fahy.

Clare-Here I am forced to pick several:Bobby Casey, Junior Crehan, Paddy Canny, and P. J. Hayes. Notice that the first two are from the west Clare tradition and the latter two are from the east Clare tradition.

Sliabh Luachra-Padraig O'Keefe

An excellent essay on the broad characteristics of regional styles can be found at:
http://www.standingstones.com/caoimhin.html

Now, you had all better not be afraid of insulting me by offering a differing opinion...

Nate

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: energy on 2002-07-31 14:51 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: energy on 2002-07-31 14:53 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:25 pm 
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Most of the discussion of regional styles that I've seen has indeed focused on fiddlers - we hear talk of various styles of piping, but in general they don't seem to regional styles. And I've never heard of regional whistle styles.

Holding up particular players as embodiments of a regional style is pretty contentious, I think. In the case of John Doherty, for example, he was probably just the most famous and most-often recorded fiddler from that county; many aspects of his style were purely personal. (Ever listened to his brother Mickey? Very different.)

There are certainly broad regional trends: in Donegal fiddling, for example, there are distinctive tune types, very fast driving pace in reels, greater prevalence of bowed ornamentation rather than finger ornamentation, etc.

But "the" Donegal style, as personified by one player? I don't buy it.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2002 1:37 pm 
I can agree with the above to an extend, though I think Paddy Fahey through his compositions has become very much associated with East Galway music, while his style and his compositions are very much a personal thing. For east Galway stuff I would prefer to look at players like Aggie White and the players around the Ballinakil and Aughrim slopes bands. Also Paddy Canny Martin Rochford, really the greats of East Clare music were very much influenced by the East Galway neighbours. Sometimes they are very close to eachother actually. I recently came across the reel Forget me not which I learned from Rochford and very much associated with his playing, yet on the recording I was listening to the Paddies Carty and Fahy to my surprise had nearly the exact same version and were not very far fro ma stylistic point of view.

I think that, for starters, it is important, and very much interesting, to see what the styles have in common rather than where they differ because by the end of the day all the really great players have a multitude of influences from all over the place which they have merged into their own style. To take Canny again, his style has been influenced by his father Pat, by Johnny Allen [a very important influence on the east Clare music and probably responsible for that sound now seen as 'the Eat Clare sound that Canny Rochford and James Woods all had], the east Galway players, the West Clare players [there is a very nice private recording of Canny, Crehan and Rochford playing together, and they played together and influenced eachother for more than 60 years] through the 78 rpms of the great Sligo players right up to the very other end of the spectrum where the playing of Tommy Potts was hugely important to him as a fiddleplayer. And yet, you wouldn't put him outside Clare when you hear him.
There's no easy answer to the style question I am afraid. Personality is a big issue, often, too often probably underestimated, Fahey is one example I gave, Steve underlined the same with Johnny Doherty becoming the embodiment of a regional style. Michael Coleman is another one, I think he is very much Michael Coleman, rather than him being the epitome of Sligo music.
Another example from West Clare could be the playing of Bobby Casey and Junior Crehan. Junior learned from Bobby's father, Scully. He then later taught the younger Bobby. While there are similarities, their styles are still quite different. Bobby having taken in a lot of other influences on the way and made his own thing out of it all.






<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-08-01 03:26 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2002 2:07 pm 
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While there may be no easy answer, wouldn't it be helpful, as a starting point, to list 10 or 20 players each who's playing, generally speaking, represents each of the regional styles? To be truly helpful(accessible) the named players would need to be ones who had recordings readily available at present - old 78's will do most of us no go, that's for sure! :lol:

Loren


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2002 9:37 pm 
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[quote]
Holding up particular players as embodiments of a regional style is pretty contentious, I think. In the case of John Doherty, for example, he was probably just the most famous and most-often recorded fiddler from that county; many aspects of his style were purely personal. (Ever listened to his brother Mickey? Very different.)
[quote]

Actually, I agree. I don't think that any player can be lifted up as an embodiment of a certain style. All I can do is point to the great players who come out of a certain regional style, and say, "Hear this guy? He plays in a Donegal (or Clare, or East Galway, etc.) fashion.

I think that to truly become familiar with a regional style, one has to listen to more than one player from that style, and compare the general characteristics. To say that all Donegal fiddlers play like Johnny Doherty would be silly. I am saying Johnny Doherty is an example of Donegal fiddling(possibly the greatest one) in that he shares common characteristics with other fiddlers from that region.

Hope this clarifies things

Nate

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: energy on 2002-07-31 23:41 ]</font>

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: energy on 2002-07-31 23:51 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2002 9:40 pm 
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Quote:
On 2002-07-31 15:37, Peter Laban wrote:

I think that, for starters, it is important, and very much interesting, to see what the styles have in common rather than where they differ because by the end of the day all the really great players have a multitude of influences from all over the place which they have merged into their own style.

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-07-31 16:16 ]</font>


Absolutely. Each player, at the end of the day, is foremost an individual who has taken those influences and evolved into their own musician.

To address Loren's point of listing players as representatives of a regional style, the idea of comparative listening is probably the best approach. Fortunately, the old 78 recordings are available on CD. "Milestone At The Garden: Irish Fiddle Masters From The 78 RPM Era" (available at amazon.com)would be a starting point for a sampling of different players from different regions. Also, RTE is always a great resource. They've put together an impressive collection of recordings, free for the listening online. It's one of the few places I've been able to hear Joe Ryan. A CD collection I've found interesting as a multi-national/regional sampling is "From a Distant Shore: Irish and Cape Breton Traditional Music", also available at amazon.com It covers Donegal, Cape Bretton, US, England with the McMasters, Mulvihill, Holland, Stubbert, Carroll, Burke...(long list). It's a good example of how the influences flowed between the different countries, were modified, individualized, and made their own.

Teri


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2002 1:03 am 
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On 2002-07-31 23:40, Teri-K wrote:
Also, RTE is always a great resource. They've put together an impressive collection of recordings, free for the listening online. It's one of the few places I've been able to hear Joe Ryan.


Joe Ryan did an lp with harmonica player Eddie Clark during the 70s, he appeared on the compilation Ceol an Chlair [John Moulden's Ulstersong, very recently was selling copies of that lp, I was very happy to find it even after having it on tape for donkey's years], he also did his solo CD five years ago and the more recent one with Gerdy Commane is there as well. He also appeared on recordings with the Castle Ceiliband.

<!-- BBCode Start --><IMG SRC="
http://www.concertina.net/images_peter_ ... ommane.jpg" BORDER="0"><!-- BBCode End -->


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2002-08-01 12:04 ]</font>


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2002 7:17 am 
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Okay Great, so Teri says there are recordings available, now how about a listing? Can we get the names of 20+ musicians who play (more or less) in the "East Galway Style"? Another 20+ each in the Sligo and other regional styles? We could keep a running compilation...in fact I volunteer Kevin to make a space for a permanent (and hopefully growing) list on his annex site.

Loren


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2002 3:00 pm 
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I'll be happy to do so.

I just need some guidance on how best to structure it.

Is RTE a website? sounds like we can link to some sound files on that site, and list discography for those that arent on the site. Perhaps if I link to the publisher/music house I can get premission to post the MP3 of certain tunes on some of these recordings...I've seen this done on some of the fiddle sites.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2002 3:27 pm 
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Quote:
On 2002-08-01 17:00, DazedinLA wrote:
I'll be happy to do so.

I just need some guidance on how best to structure it.

Is RTE a website? sounds like we can link to some sound files on that site, and list discography for those that arent on the site. Perhaps if I link to the publisher/music house I can get premission to post the MP3 of certain tunes on some of these recordings...I've seen this done on some of the fiddle sites.



Yes, RTE is a website and I don't believe the audio clips can be linked. Anyone interested needs to invest the time by going to the site, reading, reading and then read some more and listen to the recordings. As far as listing to mp3's, if a list of recommended players/recordings does get created, I don't think it's out of line to buy the CD's instead of going for the freebee's. Most of these guys make a meager living at the music and should get a few pennies in their pockets for their efforts.

Teri


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2002 5:56 am 
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Quite right, thats a decent approach, Teri, and perhaps a link to the site that sells the cd, particularly the mam and pop labels. I was just thinking that it would be nice to have the discography and the music all in one place.

I guess also from my perspective hearing a sample makes me more inclined to buy the album. For ex, I've been rooting around for Michael Coleman's CD (I think there's only one extant CD collection of his work), which from the kind assistance of a Chiff poster got me to several sites, one of which is Topic records, a wonderful label with other Pure Drop classic albums, and Im likely now to buy several albums from them...but I got there from a single MP3 of one of the tunes on one of the albums. Maybe its just me, but now I know these names...Michael Coleman, Michael Gorman, Julia Clifford, James Morrison, Jimmy Power, etc. and when I hear one clip by these people and know there's and entire album out there, well, maybe its a form of IrtTrad CD Acquistion Disorder.

Anyway, I'll defer to collective wisdom. I have seen that one guy's fiddle page had one or two sample tunes from each of the excellent CDs offered by Topic Records, so I know that Topic is willing under the right circumstances to do something like this if they think it may draw in new customers.

The tactic certainly got me hooked on their label...they have an amazing selection of folk artists.

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