stylistic difference between old and modern tunes
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stylistic difference between old and modern tunes
Plugging away, learning a tune a week or so. I set out to learn "the Kesh" and came across Shannon Heaton teaching "The Spring Well," which as she points out is closely related to "the Kesh."
And so I consult my O'Neills and there it is. Charming!
The thing that is nagging at me is the difference between it and versions of the Kesh that I've listened to. I like "the Spring Wells" better, and it seems easier to play to me, maybe: it speaks to a different era? I'm not sure why. The descent to an F# in the first line? The C Nat in the B section? (I find it hard to play the C nat and keep wanting to make it sharp) The less aggressive second register?
Is there a general trend or fad in the evolution of tunes?
And so I consult my O'Neills and there it is. Charming!
The thing that is nagging at me is the difference between it and versions of the Kesh that I've listened to. I like "the Spring Wells" better, and it seems easier to play to me, maybe: it speaks to a different era? I'm not sure why. The descent to an F# in the first line? The C Nat in the B section? (I find it hard to play the C nat and keep wanting to make it sharp) The less aggressive second register?
Is there a general trend or fad in the evolution of tunes?
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Re: stylistic difference between old and modern tunes
Where is "The Spring Well" in O'Neill's? Can you point me to which O'Neill's collection and which page or number it is? I'm having difficulty finding it. I only know of the Finbarr Dwyer tune, a reel, of that name.PB+J wrote:Plugging away, learning a tune a week or so. I set out to learn "the Kesh" and came across Shannon Heaton teaching "The Spring Well," which as she points out is closely related to "the Kesh."
And so I consult my O'Neills and there it is. Charming!
The thing that is nagging at me is the difference between it and versions of the Kesh that I've listened to. I like "the Spring Wells" better, and it seems easier to play to me, maybe: it speaks to a different era? I'm not sure why. The descent to an F# in the first line? The C Nat in the B section? (I find it hard to play the C nat and keep wanting to make it sharp) The less aggressive second register?
Is there a general trend or fad in the evolution of tunes?
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Re: stylistic difference between old and modern tunes
I don't think you'll find it in Chief O'Neil's works. There is, however, one in Krassen's collection (p.66). Not sure I'd call it a close version of the Kesh although I can see why someone would think that.benhall.1 wrote: Where is "The Spring Well" in O'Neill's? Can you point me to which O'Neill's collection and which page or number it is?
I can't speak to the age of both tunes although some would probably argue the Kesh's gapped scale (no C) could be an indicator of a great age. In fairness, the C in the second part of the Spring Well stands out like a sore thumb to my ear and if it were up to me I'd play a B instead.
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Re: stylistic difference between old and modern tunes
https://tunearch.org/wiki/Spring_Well_(The)
no. 1080, p. 203 in O'Neill's Music of Ireland (aka 1850)
no. 1080, p. 203 in O'Neill's Music of Ireland (aka 1850)
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Re: stylistic difference between old and modern tunes
benhall.1 wrote:Where is "The Spring Well" in O'Neill's? Can you point me to which O'Neill's collection and which page or number it is? I'm having difficulty finding it. I only know of the Finbarr Dwyer tune, a reel, of that name.PB+J wrote:Plugging away, learning a tune a week or so. I set out to learn "the Kesh" and came across Shannon Heaton teaching "The Spring Well," which as she points out is closely related to "the Kesh."
And so I consult my O'Neills and there it is. Charming!
The thing that is nagging at me is the difference between it and versions of the Kesh that I've listened to. I like "the Spring Wells" better, and it seems easier to play to me, maybe: it speaks to a different era? I'm not sure why. The descent to an F# in the first line? The C Nat in the B section? (I find it hard to play the C nat and keep wanting to make it sharp) The less aggressive second register?
Is there a general trend or fad in the evolution of tunes?
P. 57 of the Krassen edition
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Re: stylistic difference between old and modern tunes
Mr.Gumby wrote:I don't think you'll find it in Chief O'Neil's works. There is, however, one in Krassen's collection (p.66). Not sure I'd call it a close version of the Kesh although I can see why someone would think that.benhall.1 wrote: Where is "The Spring Well" in O'Neill's? Can you point me to which O'Neill's collection and which page or number it is?
I can't speak to the age of both tunes although some would probably argue the Kesh's gapped scale (no C) could be an indicator of a great age. In fairness, the C in the second part of the Spring Well stands out like a sore thumb to my ear and if it were up to me I'd play a B instead.
Yes I keep trying to play a B, part of what's interesting about it
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Re: stylistic difference between old and modern tunes
Must be a different edition from mineP. 57 of the Krassen edition
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Re: stylistic difference between old and modern tunes
Well, that's a bit rubbish of me. I have a searchable index of the 1850 and the 1001 Gems, and I couldn't find it. It's there, right enough, though. Thanks NicoMoreno.NicoMoreno wrote:https://tunearch.org/wiki/Spring_Well_(The)
no. 1080, p. 203 in O'Neill's Music of Ireland (aka 1850)
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Re: stylistic difference between old and modern tunes
I've just looked up The Kesh in The Fiddler's Companion. It appears to be, as these things go, a very old tune: The fiddler's Companion says that, "The first printed version appears to be in George Petrie’s 1850’s collection under the title “Tear the Callies.”"
So I don't think there's much to be gleaned about the evolution of tunes by a comparison between these two old tunes.
So I don't think there's much to be gleaned about the evolution of tunes by a comparison between these two old tunes.
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Re: stylistic difference between old and modern tunes
I've obviously got the same edition as you, Mr G. Page 66 in mine, too.Mr.Gumby wrote:Must be a different edition from mineP. 57 of the Krassen edition
I've just looked up Tear the Callies in Petrie. It turns out to be pretty much identical to The Spring Well, including the second part, which seems so different (to me, at least) from the second part of The Kesh Jig. Hmmm ... Drawing board?
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Re: stylistic difference between old and modern tunes
I was a bit quick of the mark there. Playing it again it's easy to see where the transition from one to the other occurs.Not sure I'd call it a close version of the Kesh although I can see why someone would think that.
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Re: stylistic difference between old and modern tunes
Here's the version in my copy of the digital O'Neill's -- notably minus the (to my eyes kind of weird) Krassen changes.
My instinct is that the AGG G2 pattern at the end of the parts is a sign that a tune is more old fashioned. HOWEVER, I thought to peek at irishtune.info, and it also lists The Kesh as #1030 (as well as #1080, The Spring Well). Here's #1030:
My instinct is that the AGG G2 pattern at the end of the parts is a sign that a tune is more old fashioned. HOWEVER, I thought to peek at irishtune.info, and it also lists The Kesh as #1030 (as well as #1080, The Spring Well). Here's #1030:
Sol's Tunes (new tune 2/2020)
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Re: stylistic difference between old and modern tunes
So it's in the same family with The Kesh, and it's not clear whose the eldest?
I don't know much about musicology though I know a good bit about the history of American music. I would guess, just a guess not based on systematic evidence, that more modern tunes would reflect the cultural hegemony of American pop music, a lot of which is derived from African American music and minstrel shows.
When did the banjo enter into the family of acceptable instruments for Irish traditional music?
I don't know much about musicology though I know a good bit about the history of American music. I would guess, just a guess not based on systematic evidence, that more modern tunes would reflect the cultural hegemony of American pop music, a lot of which is derived from African American music and minstrel shows.
When did the banjo enter into the family of acceptable instruments for Irish traditional music?
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I've got some compositions up at http://www.harmonyware.com/tunes/SolsTunes.html - Location: Midland, Michigan
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Re: stylistic difference between old and modern tunes
What catches my attention about "The Spring Well" and "The Mountaineer's March" is how they seem to have complementary bits of "The Kesh" in them. But I don't see any obvious way of knowing whether that means "The Kesh" is their common ancestor or a blend of the two of them or something else.PB+J wrote:So it's in the same family with The Kesh, and it's not clear whose the eldest?
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