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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 8:02 am 
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Plugging away, learning a tune a week or so. I set out to learn "the Kesh" and came across Shannon Heaton teaching "The Spring Well," which as she points out is closely related to "the Kesh."

And so I consult my O'Neills and there it is. Charming!

The thing that is nagging at me is the difference between it and versions of the Kesh that I've listened to. I like "the Spring Wells" better, and it seems easier to play to me, maybe: it speaks to a different era? I'm not sure why. The descent to an F# in the first line? The C Nat in the B section? (I find it hard to play the C nat and keep wanting to make it sharp) The less aggressive second register?

Is there a general trend or fad in the evolution of tunes?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:05 am 
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PB+J wrote:
Plugging away, learning a tune a week or so. I set out to learn "the Kesh" and came across Shannon Heaton teaching "The Spring Well," which as she points out is closely related to "the Kesh."

And so I consult my O'Neills and there it is. Charming!

The thing that is nagging at me is the difference between it and versions of the Kesh that I've listened to. I like "the Spring Wells" better, and it seems easier to play to me, maybe: it speaks to a different era? I'm not sure why. The descent to an F# in the first line? The C Nat in the B section? (I find it hard to play the C nat and keep wanting to make it sharp) The less aggressive second register?

Is there a general trend or fad in the evolution of tunes?

Where is "The Spring Well" in O'Neill's? Can you point me to which O'Neill's collection and which page or number it is? I'm having difficulty finding it. I only know of the Finbarr Dwyer tune, a reel, of that name.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:30 am 
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benhall.1 wrote:
Where is "The Spring Well" in O'Neill's? Can you point me to which O'Neill's collection and which page or number it is?


I don't think you'll find it in Chief O'Neil's works. There is, however, one in Krassen's collection (p.66). Not sure I'd call it a close version of the Kesh although I can see why someone would think that.


I can't speak to the age of both tunes although some would probably argue the Kesh's gapped scale (no C) could be an indicator of a great age. In fairness, the C in the second part of the Spring Well stands out like a sore thumb to my ear and if it were up to me I'd play a B instead.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:33 am 
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https://tunearch.org/wiki/Spring_Well_(The)

no. 1080, p. 203 in O'Neill's Music of Ireland (aka 1850)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:42 am 
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benhall.1 wrote:
PB+J wrote:
Plugging away, learning a tune a week or so. I set out to learn "the Kesh" and came across Shannon Heaton teaching "The Spring Well," which as she points out is closely related to "the Kesh."

And so I consult my O'Neills and there it is. Charming!

The thing that is nagging at me is the difference between it and versions of the Kesh that I've listened to. I like "the Spring Wells" better, and it seems easier to play to me, maybe: it speaks to a different era? I'm not sure why. The descent to an F# in the first line? The C Nat in the B section? (I find it hard to play the C nat and keep wanting to make it sharp) The less aggressive second register?

Is there a general trend or fad in the evolution of tunes?

Where is "The Spring Well" in O'Neill's? Can you point me to which O'Neill's collection and which page or number it is? I'm having difficulty finding it. I only know of the Finbarr Dwyer tune, a reel, of that name.



P. 57 of the Krassen edition

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:43 am 
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Mr.Gumby wrote:
benhall.1 wrote:
Where is "The Spring Well" in O'Neill's? Can you point me to which O'Neill's collection and which page or number it is?


I don't think you'll find it in Chief O'Neil's works. There is, however, one in Krassen's collection (p.66). Not sure I'd call it a close version of the Kesh although I can see why someone would think that.


I can't speak to the age of both tunes although some would probably argue the Kesh's gapped scale (no C) could be an indicator of a great age. In fairness, the C in the second part of the Spring Well stands out like a sore thumb to my ear and if it were up to me I'd play a B instead.




Yes I keep trying to play a B, part of what's interesting about it


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:50 am 
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P. 57 of the Krassen edition


Must be a different edition from mine :D

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:32 am 
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NicoMoreno wrote:
https://tunearch.org/wiki/Spring_Well_(The)

no. 1080, p. 203 in O'Neill's Music of Ireland (aka 1850)

Well, that's a bit rubbish of me. I have a searchable index of the 1850 and the 1001 Gems, and I couldn't find it. It's there, right enough, though. Thanks NicoMoreno. :thumbsup:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 11:46 am 
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I've just looked up The Kesh in The Fiddler's Companion. It appears to be, as these things go, a very old tune: The fiddler's Companion says that, "The first printed version appears to be in George Petrie’s 1850’s collection under the title “Tear the Callies.”"

So I don't think there's much to be gleaned about the evolution of tunes by a comparison between these two old tunes.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 12:36 pm 
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Mr.Gumby wrote:
Quote:
P. 57 of the Krassen edition


Must be a different edition from mine :D

I've obviously got the same edition as you, Mr G. Page 66 in mine, too.

I've just looked up Tear the Callies in Petrie. It turns out to be pretty much identical to The Spring Well, including the second part, which seems so different (to me, at least) from the second part of The Kesh Jig. Hmmm ... Drawing board?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 4:01 pm 
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Not sure I'd call it a close version of the Kesh although I can see why someone would think that.


I was a bit quick of the mark there. Playing it again it's easy to see where the transition from one to the other occurs. :oops:

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:52 pm 
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Here's the version in my copy of the digital O'Neill's -- notably minus the (to my eyes kind of weird) Krassen changes.

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My instinct is that the AGG G2 pattern at the end of the parts is a sign that a tune is more old fashioned. HOWEVER, I thought to peek at irishtune.info, and it also lists The Kesh as #1030 (as well as #1080, The Spring Well). Here's #1030:

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 5:19 am 
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So it's in the same family with The Kesh, and it's not clear whose the eldest?

I don't know much about musicology though I know a good bit about the history of American music. I would guess, just a guess not based on systematic evidence, that more modern tunes would reflect the cultural hegemony of American pop music, a lot of which is derived from African American music and minstrel shows.

When did the banjo enter into the family of acceptable instruments for Irish traditional music?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:08 am 
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PB+J wrote:
So it's in the same family with The Kesh, and it's not clear whose the eldest?

What catches my attention about "The Spring Well" and "The Mountaineer's March" is how they seem to have complementary bits of "The Kesh" in them. But I don't see any obvious way of knowing whether that means "The Kesh" is their common ancestor or a blend of the two of them or something else.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 09, 2018 8:42 am 
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Banjo
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banjo
You'll find what you're looking for there.

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