"Typical" Way of Playing?

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CHasR
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Re: "Typical" Way of Playing?

Post by CHasR »

PJ wrote:It is disputed whether the following piper is Johnny Doran, but it gives an idea of the "standing piper":

Image

Note the chord between the popping valve and the pipes.
YES ! Thats where ive seen this before & it was the cord that got me thinking about how it could work. IIRC, theres a whiole discussion on here somewhere, already saying that this isnt JD . THANKS PJ :thumbsup: :love:
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Re: "Typical" Way of Playing?

Post by an seanduine »

Kevin L. Rietman wrote:

Never heard of this reversed popping valve idea, that might work. Attaching a shelf of some kind might be simpler to make, though.
Perhaps. But Johnny was described by Cecil Colville as using a 'clear aluminum box' to prop one leg up. This would be a position where a harness could support the stocks and bag, and one could still manage the chanter as usual on the knee. The box also doubled as the busking box, with the crowd pitching in quantities of half crowns. It sounded like a good day at Ballymena for Johnny and the 'wee girl' dancing for him.

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Re: "Typical" Way of Playing?

Post by Brent Lyons »

PJ wrote:It is disputed whether the following piper is Johnny Doran, but it gives an idea of the "standing piper":

Image

Note the chord between the popping valve and the pipes.
That looks just like the gentleman I saw playing in the band - thank you! At the time I thought he might be "pipe-synching", but it seems that it is quite possible to play that way... :boggle:
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Re: "Typical" Way of Playing?

Post by PJ »

Mr.Gumby wrote: At some point the picture was on the McPeake's website identifying the piper as (old) Francis McPeake. There is a striking resemblance between Francis McPeake in the photo in O'Neill's IM&M and the piper in the photo, the timelines and ages don't add up however.

Judging by the clips on YouTube, old Francis played the chanter with the tips of the fingers of his upper hand, but the piper in the "Doran" photo seems to be using the phalanges.
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Re: "Typical" Way of Playing?

Post by Kevin L. Rietmann »

an seanduine wrote:'clear aluminum'
What, like in Star Trek IV? :tomato: "We are searching for a nuclear wessel."
But Johnny was described by Cecil Colville as using a 'clear aluminum box' to prop one leg up. This would be a position where a harness could support the stocks and bag, and one could still manage the chanter as usual on the knee.
I can't use shoulder straps, on the pipes or accordion, or tuck fiddles under my chin, either - I have some problem where doing these things gives me very painful pinched nerves etc. Years ago I had to devise a way to hold the pipes, so I concocted a system where a long length of tube connects a small stock in the bag to a cup on the mainstock; I hold the pipes with the bass bar underneath my arm; to move the keys around I tie a bit of leather cord to my left leg.

I came up with this system about 10 years ago, and spent a whole day attempting to yoke some kind of harness to keep the pipes off the ground etc. Didn't have much of any luck to say the least - even tried hanging the set from hooks in the ceiling, or from a music stand, back of chairs, etc. I'm really puzzled by this description of this Doran box, are you saying "clear" in the sense that his leg would go through a hole in the box?

Something like the harness bass drummers use in marching bands might make for a way to hold a set of pipes up.

Where's the cord that the mystery piper's popping valve is attached to, anyway? I think I see something wrapped around the bass reg, maybe. But perhaps he's just playing airborne. I thought old Francie played an O'Meally set and nothing else, too.
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Re: "Typical" Way of Playing?

Post by an seanduine »

Dunno, Kevin, those were the words old Cecil used. My guess would be meaning something like 'shiny' or 'unpainted'. I don't think he would make a Star Trek allusion. . .
If you look closely at the 'mystery' piper, you might be able to see a kind of cradle to support the mainstock from both ends. I can't tell if he has shoulder supports over both shoulders. . .one I can see clearly.
The 'mystery' piper is taller than average. From the picture of Johnny with Josie Hayes he doesn't appear to have an exceptionally large physique. I can't quite make out the word at the top of the sign behind the 'mystery' piper, the rest reads 'Automobile Club'. With a partially open window in the background I would place the fair (where ever it is taking place) in the summer. Any guesses as to location?

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Re: "Typical" Way of Playing?

Post by dunnp »

The sign appears to say, "Irish Automobile Club" which Google reveals to be an older name for the Royal Irish Automobile Club in Dublin.
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Re: "Typical" Way of Playing?

Post by an seanduine »

Hmmm. Now that is interesting. If that building is the IAC, now RIAC building, our 'mystery' piper is playing, and presumably busking in some rather posh surroundings.

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Re: "Typical" Way of Playing?

Post by m4malious »

[Thread revival. - Mod]

The original uncropped photo shows that the building in the background is in fact the "Antrim Arms" hotel.
On the corner of Castle St. Ballycastle, and just across from the "The Diamond". Suitable open place for the street fair and for busking.
The sign over the doorway is still there.The IAC sign appears in much older photos, circa pre WW1 through to other photos from the 1950s.

Not wanting to add to the mystery, but there are some pointers to the possibility of this being Felix Doran;
- the set of pipes is a very close match (chanter, head, bass reg cap, bass drone) to a set Felix has in a photo with a fiddler in the 1950s.
- the Pioneer Total Abstinence Society lapel pin - again, something shown in other photos of Felix, and, mentioned in biographical notes.
- the ring on the wedding finger, being a large flat square shape, similar in style, size, location to that worn by Felix in other photos.

People will say "...oh, doesn't look like his face...". My advice - do what the experts do and look at the ears for possible match.

M
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Re: "Typical" Way of Playing?

Post by Mr.Gumby »

The photo was taken by George Pickow, Jean Ritchie's husband. There's a date and place for it but I can't immediately think of it, earlier 40s, I believe. The negative is not in the Pickow collection in the Hardiman library in Galway but it is listed in one of the big photo agencies, Gety images, I seem to remember.

The piper doesn't look like Johnny Doran, but discussing the ins and out of it with Terry Moylan years ago, Terry said 'Johnny's children say it's their father in the photo, how can we argue with that?'
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Re: "Typical" Way of Playing?

Post by Steampacket »

I used to be unsure if it was Johnny in the George Pickow photo, but I think it is Johnny now. In the Pavee wagon photo the set of pipes have the same features as the the set in the Pickow photo. The chanter looks the same in both photos with the same Leo Rowsome reed cap with ivory ferrule, the same rounded ivory chanter top, and stop key. The ivory bass drone cap, bass drone puck and "ladder" with ivory plugs, look identical too, as do the regulator ferrules. The piper's right hand and fingers in both photos are the same too, also the way his left hand thumb peeks out from behind the back of the chanter. The piper's prominent cheek bones and what what one can see of the ears look the same. Felix had an altogether different face, different eyebrows and sockets, cheek bones too, even when he was younger. In the Pavee wagon photo Pat Cash is holding Johnny's Coyne set just for the photo shoot. Pat didn't play the pipes as far as I know. https://journalofmusic.com/focus/pipers ... enturies-0
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Re: "Typical" Way of Playing?

Post by m4malious »

The meta data for the photo is understood - but of course has the potential for error. "Lammas Fair" - sure, the building location seems certain, and the idea of it being fair-day seems obvious for someone busking for money.
"Pickow" and "c1955" might be a little more uncertain. Pickow and Ritchie are pretty confidently placed in Ireland in both 1952 and 1953, so straight away the "1955" seems off.
For it to be JD, it would have to pre-date Jan1950 (and you'd have to think Jan1948 = the time of his accident, given description of its impact on him).
Not impossible, but if earlier than 1948, the attribution to PIckow seems more uncertain given the interest in folk musicians seems to have come from meeting Ritchie in 1948 - however he is recorded as having been in Europe and Israel in '47-48.

Lammas fair - held August - was not held 1940-45, so that reduces the idea the photo is JD to 1946-47, or to being pre war.
The Antrim Arms had the IAC and "trefoil" (three bladed propeller?) signs up on that front wall from as early as the 1910s, so they don't help dating.
The identity of the car door in the hotels doorway would take a super-sleuth to ID.
There's a great similar photo of the fair in 1953 here - https://collections.st-andrews.ac.uk/ii ... efault.jpg
The Antrim Arms doorway is exactly as in the question photo. No piper in sight, unless you can spot him in the crowd!

I'd dispute the pipes being the same set seen in other JD photos. To me, the confirmed photos show subtle differences - a bass reg cap ivory of the inverted pyramid style, a smaller bass drone puck more like an ivory disc, bass drone slide of single tube construction without wood exposed, proportions of the bass drone "H" section, no inward ivory ring on the regulator end ferrules, and - at least in two photos - the scalloped bass reg mount plate on the stock. The pipes in the unconfirmed photo appears very much a 30s' or 40's Rowsome set, but not identical to the other confirmed photos.

Compare the set though to this image of Felix - https://tvivf.files.wordpress.com/2016/ ... =768&h=566
People can draw their own conclusion, but I say that is a closer match in features of the two instruments.

M
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Re: "Typical" Way of Playing?

Post by Driftwood »

When this thread started back in 2013 the talk was about playing the pipes standing up. A year or two after that I made me a "uilleann" chanter that I can play sitting, standing or walking about.
Image
The bottom centimetre or two of the bore is bent so that the end can be stopped against the body.
Image
The chanter in the picture has a gravity powered popping valve. I've got another one which is spring loaded and the whole setup feels very secure. (Depending on the player's clothing, a popping valve may not be needed at all). I guess you could get the same result with an ordinary chanter connected to a bag with a long flexible neck.

Of course, none of this solves the problem of unruly regulators wobbling all over the place. I think that's beyond me.
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Re: "Typical" Way of Playing?

Post by reedmasters »

That's a mighty clever solution. It's good looking as well.

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Re: "Typical" Way of Playing?

Post by Steampacket »

Yes, you could be right M regarding the Rowsome set in the Lammas Fair photo, but that doesn't prove anything as Johnny and Felix were know to have swopped instruments. Also the photo with Felix and Michael Gorman in was probably taken in England in the 1960's. So the pipes were probably Johnny's back in the 1930's up until to his accident in 1948. It wouldn't have been unusual for Felix to inherit Johnny's set of pipes if he had difficulty playing a full set after the accident. Later of course Felix had the silver sets/chanter/drones made by Leo, and Frank Gorker

Here the Lammas Fair photo is dated to be around 1936! Which would put Johnny at age 29:
http://www.carrowkeel.com/sites/cong/puca.html

I'm still sure it is Johnny going by the ear shape, eye brows, cheek bones, hands, and the shape of the head and chin. Felix had a different, squarish, head shape, longer ear lobes, and straighter eye brows. Regarding the temperance pin, According to fiddler Patrick Kelly Johnny wasn't one for the drink, also the signet ring could have been Johnny's originally, and later inherited by Felix?
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