Flat Chanter upper octave

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FlaminGalah
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Flat Chanter upper octave

Post by FlaminGalah »

Hello all,

I am currently getting acquainted with my delightful new-to-me B full set by Arie De Keyzer, reeded by Fergus Finnegan. It is playing beautifully (and I was bowled over that all seven reeds arrived in Australia having been shipped from Ireland, all working, all IN TUNE, with nearly no fettling). I was also very impressed with the workmanship - all hand rolled metalwork and tapered ferrules. I know that doesnt matter for sound, but it gives me confidence in the care taken throughout.

I have been a long time D half set player, and most of the physical playing of the B set ie easier in terms of pressure required and consistency of notes, lack of squeaks and so on.

The only exception leads to my question: contra my great Ian McKenzie D chanter, I find I need a lot of extra pressure required to get the high "A" and "B" (transposed, I'm using D terminology). So while the rest of the B chanter notes take less pressure than my D chanter, the high A and B take quite a bit more to avoid falling back down to lower octave. The result is that the pressure differential I need to get those notes is pretty high, and causes me problems, eg when coming back down to back D, which then gets overblown. Interestingly, high C and high D are not so difficult, and much more in line with the rest of the chanter. If I am very disciplined about tight fingering, I can make the A and B easier, but I find they are much more sensitive to looser fingering than they are on the D chanter. I can do it, but I have to be much more conscious about technique and pressure when dealing with these notes than I do on the D chanter.

The chanter is otherwise sounding great, with excellent tone and at a very comfortable pressure, so I don't want to mess with the reed much.

Any tips? Do the flat chanters simply require more tight-fingering to hit these notes, or is there another trick I'm missing?
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Mr.Gumby
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Re: Flat Chanter upper octave

Post by Mr.Gumby »

The short answer is : that is not how it should be.
My brain hurts

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geoff wooff
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Re: Flat Chanter upper octave

Post by geoff wooff »

From your description it appears to me that you are probably blowing too hard. Many pipers coming from Concert Pitch will be used to pressing harder on the bag than is ideal for the Flat sets. Almost every customer arriving at my house to collect their Flat set is surprised at the light pressure required , almost all having commenced their piping on Wide bore D sets..... and that is often after I have set up the new reeds as hard as I can comfortably play!

I can imagine that Fergus has sent you new reeds that require a degree of 'playing-in'.... so give them some time to become a little more flexible BUT if the back D is breaking under the pressure needed for upper octave A' and B's then I suggest the chanter reed could be closed a tiny bit.

If the upper A's and B's come more easily with closed fingering then use that.

Also, ' a teaching grandma to suck eggs' comment , do not over inflate the bag. On this type of Pipes chanter notes do not all have the same pressure requirements ,therefore it is imperative to allow some room for adjustment of arm force. Inflate the bag no more than 90%.

If you adjust the chanter reed you may have to adjust all the other reeds too.
FlaminGalah
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Re: Flat Chanter upper octave

Post by FlaminGalah »

Thank you Geoff, that is all very helpful!

Yes they are indeed new reeds - I've had them about 8 weeks and I suspect he made them in the month or two before that. We've also had mighty humidity swings in Sydney this summer so I'm coping with fairly wide ranges of behaviour on all pipes at the moment.

I am familiar with the bag needing to be less inflated (from your other comments in this forum!) and do notice this difference in the flat set.

Closing the reed surprised me somewhat - would that not make the back D more likely to break as well? In my case it has a fairly defined pressure level where it flattens suddenly and a lot with heavy pressure.

I can definitely close up other reeds (though the baritone reg "D" gets a little jumpy if I close that one too much.

Does any of this sound like a chanter reed leak? I noticed the reed is shaved thin-to-the-point-of-vanishing on one blade in one corner - but the area affected is no bigger than the corners clipped off entirely by some reedmakers.
geoff wooff
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Re: Flat Chanter upper octave

Post by geoff wooff »

A reed leak ? Yes, anything is possible. Leaks in the binding, at the socket , at the sides of the head. reed too low in pitch or too high ( reed head speed)..... it is all a mine field.
Closing the reed a little might ease the pressure needed for those upper notes, then an overall drop in pressure should relieve the Back D problem.... worth a try.

Check the chanter reed by closing the head between finger and thumb and trying to suck air through the staple , that will show any leak in the binding. Ideally there should be no feeling of a drop in the vacuum created by that sucking force. If that is fine try to close the end of the head aperture with a finger and suck again.... any leak now would suggest a leak at the sides of the head.

When you draw air through the reed, sucking gently on the staple end , the sound when the head closes should be a sharp snap, the vibrating sound should commence very cleanly and quickly ( not easy to describe sound and feeling) . If the sound begins gradually it suggests the faces of the blades are not mating well. I rub the head on a clean sheet of glass , pressing the two faces together with good finger presure to bed the tip edges into each other... this improves crispness of the start of each vibration cycle.
FlaminGalah
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Re: Flat Chanter upper octave

Post by FlaminGalah »

Thank you Geoff- I always appreciate the time you put into helping all of us! I’ll give this all a try. Thanks again.
FlaminGalah
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Re: Flat Chanter upper octave

Post by FlaminGalah »

In update: I did Geoff’s tests for leaking and things are all airtight.

Closing down the chanter reed and drone reeds to lighten overall pressure (which was already quite comfortable) has made a big difference, and brought the chanter into better balance with itself. This is great, thank you Geoff.

That leaves the regulators, which are fine at their current pressure but the bass and baritone really should be a hair lighter now to be in balance both pressure wise and in volume. I can close them down, but do you have any tips to keep the baritone D and Bass G from jumping? They don’t jump at their current pressure, but I suspect will if I close them down, and the bass C for example is a bit unresponsive so lowering its pressure would be an improvement.
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Re: Flat Chanter upper octave

Post by geoff wooff »

As your point of reference, long time playing a concert pitch half set, it could be that your idea of light pressure might be further up the scale than my own but I'll try to make some suggestions regarding those regulators.

It could be that you may need to scrape the regulator reeds when you close them down a little. This should make them more compliant to the lower presure and stop them rising in pitch with the closed down aperture. Balancing four double reeds and three singles is quite a job. You say the C on the bass regulator is a little unresponsive that again suggests clsing the reed and (perhaps) a little scraping at the binding end of the head.

Those low notes on the Bass and Baritone will respond better IF you open the keys quickly and as fully as possible. Try snapping them open. If they tend to jump octaves when you play them with the chanter in the upper octave then you still have a little inbalence... and perhaps trying to play the upper octave with the least amount of force should allow the regulators to behave.

The keys of the bass regulator need to lift well clear of the tone holes otherwise octave jumping will persist.

Take your time with these adjustments
FlaminGalah
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Re: Flat Chanter upper octave

Post by FlaminGalah »

Hi Geoff,

Thanks again for all the above recommendations - I tried to write back but the forum has been down. Thank you, in any case!

This has all been very helpful, and I have been surprised at just how low pressure I can get the set adjusted to and still have it playing nicely - lest anyone ever accuse you of exaggerating the lightness a flat set can play at!

On leaks, everything seems leak free about the reed with one exception - on a close look, it is true that one corner of one blade is "missing" - but no more than the "clipped corners" that some makers put on both blades on both sides. Is this something to be concerned about?
geoff wooff
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Re: Flat Chanter upper octave

Post by geoff wooff »

Probably most of us had a problem loging onto this site... nice to see it back up.

That small loss at the top corner of your reed is probably not a going to affect the workings and yes many reedmakers clip the corners off, some of then with quite exagerated and uneven amounts... perhaps they have a reason for this .... but I also clip the corners as they are easily damaged .
Sounds like you are getting somewhere with the set.
FlaminGalah
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Re: Flat Chanter upper octave

Post by FlaminGalah »

Yes indeed, all going well. I played it for my daughter’s preschool class yesterday as part of their culture week activities. Well received! And playing much better and more easily now.

I still can’t quite get the bari reg balanced light enough without causing the D note to gurgle. At least not without altering the reed, which I am resisting. Will keep tweaking it. But that’s the only remaining frustration, and a minor one at that.

Thanks again!
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