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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:38 am 
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Location: Germany, half an hour west of "Old Brunswick" (Braunschweig < Brunswieck)
Yes, Kevin, saved from "Pics Of Your Pipes" (thanks for your pics, BTW). The other one is from a William Kennedy Festival - exhibition (I think taken by Paul Eliasberg).
A wee off-topic question - sorry Herr Folsom - : Did McFadden make these keyes?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:14 am 
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Note that the "Larry" I wrote about is Larry W. Dickerson now in Walla Walla, Washington.
I just could not remember Larry's last name, but he's in my Face-Buch friends list.
His "Name" here is "Lorenzo"....
S.F.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:13 pm 
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On second thought, I'll just leave those pics as is - it's too much trouble to fix. All 3 editions of Ceol na hÉireann can be read in NPU's Online Library at any rate, I just wanted to upload these as the picture quality at that site is a bit rough. Jack Flaherty and Tom Coyne appear to have Brennan or Crowley type sets with the simple type of reg key. Adam Tobin's set is like that and 4 regs to boot; the tabs on the keys are more like the Brennan set I saw in the Angus workshop, where on the larger keys there are two small tabs instead of one big one. Wonder if it also had any square holes in the bass reg - no, really, this set had a square hole for the G key. Why in God's name would he do that? Easier to make a pad, maybe?

Forget what Suzanne Neary's Brennan looked like.

James Ryan looks to be sporting a 1 regulator O'Meally set. I always wondered if the other piper in that pic, William Maher, didn't also have an O'Meally, but with teardrop shaped keys; note the folded back bass reg and concert pitch style chanter top. It's not an Egan or Rowsome, those keys are much too wide. O'Meally could forge keys for his pipes, chanters of course but he also made bass regs for old 3/4 sets. The new Seán Reid Society has a picture of a few O'Meally sets with forged reg keys, too, which are also a bit on the humongous side like this one.

Reading Ronan Browne's article on O'Meally pipes in that Seán Reid Society journal, I see that R.L. also made a set with the simple type of Taylor key, for piper Jim McIntosh; this is the deluxe set that Bill Haneman writes about in the journal.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:11 pm 
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Guten Tag, Herr Hans Joerg !
Ja, McFadden (Senior) made Ribbon Keys with the "Bent Over Ears" or "Tabs".
I believe he also made plain edges on some of the keys on certain Sets of Pipes
not all the Keys on all of the Sets he made had "Serrations"
(decorative cuts into the Metal).
Great stuff Kevin as always !!!
Sean Folsom
P.S. I pulled off the 2 Videos on my You Tube Channel
that had me playing the Brad Angus Chanter that started
this whole business. There's still some Photos on FLICKR,
if anyone is still interested in what the Chanter looked like.
S.F.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 9:48 am 
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sean an piobaire wrote:
This was ONE of Father Quigley's Chanters and then
there was the Patsy Brown Chanter with the Metal Flute Keys all up and down the front of the Chanter.
Sort of in imitation of Theobald Boehm. You didn't have to seal the holes with your Fingers, just flap a key down.


Image

Image

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 12:52 pm 
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Thanks, irishpiper. Are you in Ireland? This father Quigley sent his chanters to a relation in Sligo, IIRC; Charles Roberts worked on the sticks and wrote it about for the NPU article I keep referring to. One of them had the flute keys on the front.

In actuality those keys were likely made for something else - clarinet? The pads on Boehm flutes are pretty monstrous sized. Or maybe they're piccolo keywork. Doubt Patsy did all that work by himself, I've always assumed he raided the Haynes factory in Boston, or ordered what he wanted from Frerres or whoever was supplying band instruments back then.

Some old flutes mixed block and pin mounting:

Image

From Rick Wilson's page on "Old System" and Pratten flutes. These were simple system flutes but with keywork to seal the huge holes; it would've been impossible to cover them up otherwise. This way players familiar with the old type of fingering could also have the loud tone and accurate intonation of the Boehm and other systems, of which there were a bevy.

Here's a picture of my D Noblet piccolo:

Image

Again, this has simple system fingering, but keywork to cover up the holes - pretty useless keywork, since the holes are no larger than is usually found on these old piccs.

Note how the pads for each individual key are separate from one another - add a longer axle and you can add more pads as need be, for instance for the 4 holes you cover on the bottom hand of the pipes chanter. I'd imagine Brown used something similar. Or just standard flute keywork would do the job. With these keys the tubes the keys are fitted to slide over a rod, which is threaded at the end and screws into the post at the top of the key stack; thus when you unscrew it the various keys slide off the axles. Hope that makes sense.

Fitting keys like these to Irish pipes, you'd have to compensate for the lack of semitone keys on the axles - without them you have gaps in the sections of rod. Perhaps Brown had to solder new tubes to the keys.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 5:26 pm 
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Hello Kevin,

No problem..I am glade I can help in any little way possible. I am not from Ireland; I was Born and raised in the Boston area.

The two chanters that were once owned by Father Quigley, and that Charles Roberts serviced are in my posession. I obtained them from Charles himself. The first chanter is a typical Patsy Brown chanter. Ebony, German sheet silver and Ivory. The quality of the chanter is not one of his best I’ve seen and owned. The metal of the keys is rather thin and the ornamentation on the chanter is on the plain side.

The second chanter (which are shown by the pics) is Ebony, Silver or Brass;( which has been plated), and ivory. The chanters top has the words “P.Brown” stamped on the stop key. The popping valve is interesting because it contains the 5 rivets which are synonymous with the Taylor Brothers work rather that the 4 rivets that Patsy Brown normally uses. Perhaps it was switched out during its travels; I have no knowledge of that.

I have been told by elders who knew Patsy that the reason he used the Boehm flute style keys on some of his chanter (mostly the later chanters that Patsy made) was because of years as a bricklayer, Patsy developed serious Arthritis and had a very difficult time covering the holes completely so he developed a key system going by the Boehm flutes as an influence and created a chanter for the Uilleann Pipes that he could play without Arthritic pain. It would be also safe to say that he might have had knowledge of the Brian Boru Bagpipe developed by Henry Stark in which the bagpipes chanter has similar Boehm flutes style keys on it.

Again; this info has been passed down from mouth to ear and the exact reason for why Patsy made chanters with the Boehm flute style keys may lie with Patsy I’m afraid.

It refreshing to know that there are so many people who wish to keep these pipes and their history alive. :D


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 29, 2011 6:51 pm 
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sean an piobaire wrote:
This is all very interesting !
As for the non-GHB Bagpipes Pipe Major John Rosenburger
had when I saw him in San Diego, in 1993:
3) A Cornemuse de Berry ( This can also be called a "Musette du Centre")
Now Kevin..This came with an interesting story, as John was part of the D-Day Invasion of Normandy.
As a Piper, he asked his French Hosts if they had any local Bagpipes he could see, so they
looked in an attic and came back with a Berrichone Bagpipe and gave it to him as "Une Cadeau".
John was expecting to see a Breton Pipe, but it was from the South of France instead.


can you recall Sean, if this was in the 16 pouce size range or the 20+ size?? as you know there are a plethora of French pipes going under the 'du centre' appelation. :)


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 30, 2011 6:29 am 
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Image

The keys look very evenly spaced. Does that mean the holes are also evenly spaced?

On every chanter I've seen, the spacing between the holes are different.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 31, 2011 4:52 am 
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Thank You "IRISH PIPER" for the Photos of the P.Brown Chanter that Father Quigley owned,
as I had them for awhile, at my house in Del Rey Oaks, back in 1974.
It's Good to Know They are being "Looked After" so well !
I agree with your story that the Key Work was to compensate for
Arthritis in Mr. Brown's fingers. Also, in my own Music Teaching experience
my Saxophone students had far less trouble closing the Keys on their instruments,
and getting good tone, than my Clarinet students, who made numerous squeeks
due to not covering the open finger holes airtight, for many weeks into the course of study.

To Charles R. Yes, the Berrichone Cornemuse that P.M. Rosenburger owned was at least a 16 pouce
instrument, or perhaps an 18 pounce, somewhere in that range of measure.
(1 Pouce = 1 & 1/16th inches) All these Pipes now belong to his Son, who is also a GHB Piper.
I expect more to this thread, later, & in-a-while ?
Sean Folsom


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:58 am 
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Sean,
Do these look familiar to you?

Image
Image
Image

Cheers,
Jeff

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"Imagination is more important than knowledge" - A.E.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 11:55 am 
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JEFF, YOU ARE AMAZING !
It seems this is a large part of Gene Frain's Collection of Pipes !!!
It must be some story You have, on getting these Chanters, Bodies, and "Bits & Pieces".
SO.....How are You doing ? How's Jim McGuire's Froment "D" set working out for You ?
More Later HuH ?
Sean


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 6:48 pm 
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Alright. John Campbell sent me a pic of his own Brown or Crowley (the Irish ones this time) set - it had those huge teardrop reg keys, I think. Or keys like that, but in between brackets...must fish out that Polaroid.

The keyed double chanter is really cool. The big key surrounding the back D is for d''' I think - a way of providing that note that the Taylors never thought of; you don't see it on their chanters with the folded keys, with their chanters you obtain the note with the crossfingering, as described in Patsy Touhey's "Hints to Amateur Pipers"; their forged key ones have it, though, along with the long block mounts. Does this double chanter say P Brown somewhere? Or any of these other pieces? The blog of verdigris inside the bore is funky stuff, too. Looks like another batch of sticks that spent some time in a moldy cellar.

Seem to recall a chanter like that double in the Angus shop at some point. Maybe the Carney.

The keys at the top of the double chanter are for e''' and f''' or f#''', for the uninitiated. I have an e''' key on my Bb chanter and am to up a whopping 3 tunes I've found a use for it in...


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2011 7:13 pm 
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Quote:
It seems this is a large part of Gene Frain's Collection of Pipes !!!
It must be some story You have, on getting these Chanters, Bodies, and "Bits & Pieces".
SO.....How are You doing ? How's Jim McGuire's Froment "D" set working out for You ?


I got together with Mr. Rosenberger a short while back and photographed all of those pieces. They are not in good shape, but there are reeds in the double chanter, so reed dimensions could be derived if needed. There are a vareity of non-matching drone pieces and other regulator pieces with the set. It's really a mixed bag.

The Froment 4-reg CP set is going nicely. I love that set of pipes. I play it every day and I get an enormous amount of joy from it. Next time I see you I want to blow a few tunes on that moto mounted set of yours!

Cheers!
Jeff

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2011 8:13 pm 
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To Jeff Cullen,
On the 2nd look I did figure out that the photo you have is John Rosenburger's collection of "Bits & Pieces"
not Gene Frain's collection (although it seems very similar).
I never saw all of these Parts when I visited John.
As for having a go at my "Tayloresque" set, ANYTIME you visit Carmel Valley or Kinmundy, Illinois.
I don't think I'm going to be in the LA area anytime soon, but I never know maybe sometime in
the Future !
This turned into some "Thread" say-what-YEAH !
Sean Folsom


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