Why are there so few female pipers ?

[Ceann Cromtha]

Sounds like you guys are wandering around Pete Townsend's brain:

Mama's got a squeeze box
She wears on her chest
And when Daddy comes home
He never gets no rest

'Cause she's playing all night
And the music's all right
Mama's got a squeeze box
Daddy never sleeps at night

Well the kids don't eat
And the dog can't sleep
There's no escape from the music
In the whole damn street

[Joseph E. Smith]

C'mon, Joseph. Let's go eat some worms. My treat.

Mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, worms....

[KAD]

Wow, I can't believe I missed out on this thread all day long.

Rory, what's the complete title and publication date of Williams' book?

20:1 sounds a bit high to me these days, but I think it really depends where you are looking:
- I went to a pipers' club meeting in Manchester a couple of years ago where the m/f ratio was 1:1.
-The Northeast Tionol was at 30:1 the first time I attended back in 2001, but has gotten as low as 4:1 in recent years (15 female pipers out of about 60 pipers total in 2008).
-Nowadays, girls consistently take one or more of the top three marks in piping competitions at the fleadh, year after year, especially in slow airs. Ergo there must be plenty of girls learning the pipes.

So things are changing. It really helps to have female role models out there (Hi Susanne! Hi Máire! Hi Debbie!), and it also really helps to have supportive male mentors/teachers/pipemakers (you know who you are, gentlemen). So for all you guys out there who think there should be more women pipers, remember: your attitude can make a big difference.

On the other hand, it's not all roses: I had a bizarre conversation at a session a few months ago with a bodhran player who looked me up and down as I was strapping in and informed me (jokingly, I think) that I couldn't play pipes because I had -- and I quote -- "bits in the wrong places." I patiently replied that yes, there were not as many female pipers as male ones, but that our numbers were growing. He asked me to name some female pipers, and when I did, he cut me off with -- another joke, I think? --" Yeah, but the last two are lesbians."

Sigh.

[Uilliam]

If I was to say that most coal miners are men because its a phyically demanding job,would it be fair to call me a sexist? Judging by some of the attitudes so far the answer would probably be yes.

RORY

ye would be called misinformed,clueless,thicko or whitever...and sexist...cos...

From Great Britain, Parliamentary Papers, 1842, VoL XVI, pp. 24, 196.

In England, exclusive of Wales, it is only in some of the colliery districts of Yorkshire and Lancashire that female Children of tender age and young and adult women are allowed to descend into the coal mines and regularly to perform the same kinds of underground work, and to work for the same number of hours, as boys and men; but in the East of Scotland their employment in the pits is general; and in South Wales it is not uncommon.

Uilliam

[s1m0n]

Why are there so few female pipers ?

Assuming GHB, I'm torn between "because women don't like the underwear rule" and "because women don't need to come up with a cover story to wear a skirt".

[rorybbellows]

If I was to say that most coal miners are men because its a phyically demanding job,would it be fair to call me a sexist? Judging by some of the attitudes so far the answer would probably be yes.

RORY

ye would be called misinformed,clueless,thicko or whitever...and sexist...cos...

From Great Britain, Parliamentary Papers, 1842, VoL XVI, pp. 24, 196.

In England, exclusive of Wales, it is only in some of the colliery districts of Yorkshire and Lancashire that female Children of tender age and young and adult women are allowed to descend into the coal mines and regularly to perform the same kinds of underground work, and to work for the same number of hours, as boys and men; but in the East of Scotland their employment in the pits is general; and in South Wales it is not uncommon.

Uilliam

Thanks William, I’m extremely flattered that you should go to any trouble to find that bit of imformation from 1842.But if you learned to read or at least try to understand what you read you will see that I said that most coal miners ARE men, meaning present day not in 1842, and William stop spending so much time on your computer,it’s not doing you any good.

RORY

Rory, what's the complete title and publication date of Williams' book?

Here’s a link to the companion website for the book.
http://cw.routledge.com/textbooks/9780415991476/

RORY

[TheSilverSpear]

I've snarled at enough of the misogynist tripe in this thread (there's been no shortage of it. And there was me thinking pipers were generally an intelligent, enlightened lot. The suggestion that women are less physically capable than men of playing the pipes is one of the most assinine things I have ever read), so here's my theory as to why there have been fewer women playing the uilleann pipes: It comes down to access and economics.

You had a society, really until the mid-twentieth century or later depending on where you are, where women generally didn't have full economic independence. You also have an instrument where access has been pretty limited. It still is. If you were well off enough and of the leisure classes (therefore able to afford a set of pipes and maybe have the time to learn to play them), you did not have the economic independence to get a set. Certainly there were women in the 19th century who ran their own businesses or were unmarried and supporting themselves, but they weren't likely to have the time nor access to the instrument. My work in 19th century history (Scotland) seems to indicate that a lot of the more economically independent women were of the labouring classes. My reading the piping history suggests that the majority of people playing the things were more middle and upper class. They were expensive then, as now. Also, a lot of music was also in families and piping especially seems to be something fathers passed on to sons, rather than daughters. The son was more likely than the daughter to inherit Dad's pipes.

Access to the instrument in general is improving (although it's still crap, to be fair, as compared to other instruments) and women have more independence.

Cultural mores have changed a lot, so it's no surprise that the numbers of female pipers have risen. When I was in high school there was no Home Ec (and if there had been, you can bet I would have ditched that class) or Shop. That was the late 1990s. There were as many, if not more, girls in the advanced math and science courses. In any case I certainly don't feel "unladylike" playing the pipes. Was the last thing I ever thought of, to be honest.

Where is this 20:1 statistic even coming from? That's not what I saw at Willie Clancy Week. It's not what I see where I live. There are (to my knowledge.... Liam?) eight uilleann pipers in Glasgow. Two are women. That's more than 20:1!

I grew up in Colorado and live in Scotland. All the saddle-makers I have met both here and in CO have been female.

[rorybbellows]

I've snarled at enough of the misogynist tripe in this thread (there's been no shortage of it. And there was me thinking pipers were generally an intelligent, enlightened lot. The suggestion that women are less physically capable than men of playing the pipes is one of the most assinine things I have ever read), so here's my theory as to why there have been fewer women playing the uilleann pipes: It comes down to access and economics.

It was never suggested that female pipers are less physically capable of playing the pipes,the question was asked and the answer came back as a resounding yes,women are just as physically capable of playing the pipes so try and remove that chip and get over it.
Would economics explain why so many girls play the harp,a good harp is not cheap
Regarding the 20 to 1 ratio, what would be the ratio of recorded male pipers to female pipers (recorded meaning pipers who have made a record or CD) ?

RORY

[BigDavy]

Hi SS

If you take Glasgow and it's environs, the number of uilleann pipes players would likely run into the low 20s, there are quite a few on the GHB side that take up the uilleann pipes as a follow on to playing Scottish bellows pipes.

David

[ausdag]

I had a bizarre conversation at a session a few months ago with a bodhran player who looked me up and down as I was strapping in and informed me (jokingly, I think) that I couldn't play pipes because I had -- and I quote -- "bits in the wrong places."

Let me guess, he had a moustache and a "Thor's Gym" tank top right??

Boys and their toys. That's the reason. All those guys who want to be seen with their shiny 'Rogge - Woof - Froment - Gallagher' full sets with the 'fully-keyed chanters (for which only 1 out of every 145 tunes actually requires a key) and regulators' and oh-so-big bass drone resonator, yet couldn't play an in-tune back D to save their life, let alone an actual tune. Just like all those guys who think their hotted-up 4-cylinder Ford Escort with all the noise but no 'bang' will somehow help them to 'pick up chicks' on a Friday night.

Go on..admit it....most guys here wanted to play the pipes because it was different and would look cool and would draw attention and people would go 'wow, what are those, you must be really talented, they're really interesting, not like fiddles and flutes and whistles which EVERYBODY plays, and those silly Bod-Ran drum things....rah....rah...rah..."

Well I did anyway, but the novelty soon wore off.

[ferris54]

My wife plays on my chanter sometimes, but i keep telling her its bellows blown, not mouth blown!!

[jon1908]

If I was to say that most coal miners are men because its a phyically demanding job,would it be fair to call me a sexist? Judging by some of the attitudes so far the answer would probably be yes.

RORY

ye would be called misinformed,clueless,thicko or whitever...and sexist...cos...

From Great Britain, Parliamentary Papers, 1842, VoL XVI, pp. 24, 196.

In England, exclusive of Wales, it is only in some of the colliery districts of Yorkshire and Lancashire that female Children of tender age and young and adult women are allowed to descend into the coal mines and regularly to perform the same kinds of underground work, and to work for the same number of hours, as boys and men; but in the East of Scotland their employment in the pits is general; and in South Wales it is not uncommon.

Uilliam

A lot has changed in 160 years though (thanks to the government we had in the 1980's).

Personally, I know 2 (ex) miners (neither of them female!) and at least 8 lady pipers. Therefore, by simple statistics there are 4 times as many female pipers than miners.

Why should it matter exactly how many and what proportions there are? Simply, there should be more playing full stop.

As mentioned elsewhere though, a lot of this can be down to mainstream school music education colouring peoples choices. Boys get 'manly' instruments to play - brass, bassoon, oboe, percussion , girls get 'dainty' flutes and violins.

As for the phallic argument - nah, rubbish. Anyway, I'm off to polish my 5 reg 6 drone double chanter set in A

Jon

[MTGuru]

Personally, I know 2 (ex) miners (neither of them female!) and at least 8 lady pipers. Therefore, by simple statistics there are 4 times as many female pipers than miners.

Clearly then, we should send all the pipers into the mines to rectify the numbers. Grateful neighbors everywhere will rejoice.

[KAD]

I had a bizarre conversation at a session a few months ago with a bodhran player who looked me up and down as I was strapping in and informed me (jokingly, I think) that I couldn't play pipes because I had -- and I quote -- "bits in the wrong places."

Let me guess, he had a moustache and a "Thor's Gym" tank top right??

Goatee, as it happens. I made sure to tell him that in point of fact, I thought all my bits were exactly where they should be, thank you very much.

Boys and their toys. That's the reason. All those guys who want to be seen with their shiny 'Rogge - Woof - Froment - Gallagher' full sets with the 'fully-keyed chanters (for which only 1 out of every 145 tunes actually requires a key) and regulators' and oh-so-big bass drone resonator, yet couldn't play an in-tune back D to save their life, let alone an actual tune. Just like all those guys who think their hotted-up 4-cylinder Ford Escort with all the noise but no 'bang' will somehow help them to 'pick up chicks' on a Friday night.

Go on..admit it....most guys here wanted to play the pipes because it was different and would look cool and would draw attention and people would go 'wow, what are those, you must be really talented, they're really interesting, not like fiddles and flutes and whistles which EVERYBODY plays, and those silly Bod-Ran drum things....rah....rah...rah..."

Well I did anyway, but the novelty soon wore off.

"Boys and their toys" -- Heh. I have long suspected something similar. But to give the fellas some credit, the best male players usually don't have that attitude.

To be honest, I also initially wanted to play them because they were cool and different, and I secretly enjoyed the challenge of taking on an instrument that not too many women play! But for the most part I was totally swept away by the sound of the things and wanted to be able to make that incredible music. (Ah, well. We can all dream.)

Seriously, I'd mostly agree with Silver Spear's economic analysis. Virginia Woolf said that one needs to have a room of one's own and five hundred pounds a year in order to write, and a similar argument could be made for any artistic endeavor, including piping. It takes a good chunk of money to buy them and a good chunk of free time to learn to play them -- the former having been mostly inaccessible to women until relatively recently, and the latter being in short supply generally, especially once children enter the picture, childcare duties being unequally distributed as they often are (for a variety of reasons).

I think the 20:1 ratio is in Rory's initial post, quoting Williams. Rory, thanks for the book citation. I'm working now and then on a research project about women in uilleann piping, so I'm eager to take a look at it.

uilleannfinlander, there's a married couple I know in western Massachusetts; he plays pipes, she plays fiddle and is learning pipes (and is already quite a good player!).

KAD

[KAD]

Would economics explain why so many girls play the harp,a good harp is not cheap
Regarding the 20 to 1 ratio, what would be the ratio of recorded male pipers to female pipers (recorded meaning pipers who have made a record or CD) ?

RORY

I wonder whether most female students rent their harps at first -- not so easy to do with the pipes. Plus there might be more makers of entry-level harps that still produce good qulity sound.

As for CDs, I can think of two female pipers who have produced music CDs: Becky Taylor and Debbie Quigley. Then there's Heather Clarke's tutor. Can anyone think of more? I can think of female players who play pipes on individual tracks on albums: Emer Mayock, Claire Byrne, Louise Mulcahy, Máire Ni Ghráda. I wish Marion McCarthy would make a CD. I sure wish Louise Mulcahy and Máire Ni Ghráda would, too! And there are some other women pipers I wish we could hear from, like Rosaleen McAuley, and Mary Mitchell-Ingoldsby.

So the ratio when it comes to CDs is definitely low, compared to the number of women who play. Why is an interesting question. Time? Attitude? Money?