Whistle high d question for pipers

[Hummingbird]

Hi everyone,

I'm playing whistle now, but hope to start uilleann pipes in the next 3-6 months. Not long ago, an uilleann piper/whistle player, on listening to my whistle playing, commented that I should use the high d fingering with L1 off, rather than all fingers down, because it lent itself to better ornamentation on the high d. The all-fingers-down version is very ingrained in me, and seems easier, but I started to try to unlearn it.

It occured to me however, that if I understand correctly, the fingering with L1 off would be identical to the fingering for C# on UP (minus the pinky), and that "back D" has all holes covered except the thumb hole. Given that this is the case, wouldn't it make it harder to transition back and forth between whistle and pipes? So, if my goal is not just to stick with whistle, but to also learn pipes, which whistle high D is better?

[Cayden]

Pipes and whistle are different instruments and are played, when played correctly, in quite different ways. You'll find you won't be able just to play the chanter as if it were a whistle and come up with anything like piping.

[Joseph E. Smith]

In my limited world, whistles are considered a "gateway drug" into piping... they're not the same, but the latter is easily a hundred times as addictive.

[Tony]

In my limited world, whistles are considered a "gateway drug" into piping... they're not the same, but the latter is easily a hundred times as addictive.

Would you say whistles are like marijuana and pipes are like crack cocaine?

[Tony]

I'd sell my momma to score some really good cane!

[Joseph E. Smith]

I'd sell my momma to score some really good cane!

[tompipes]

It occured to me however, that if I understand correctly, the fingering with L1 off would be identical to the fingering for C# on UP (minus the pinky), and that "back D" has all holes covered except the thumb hole. Given that this is the case, wouldn't it make it harder to transition back and forth between whistle and pipes? So, if my goal is not just to stick with whistle, but to also learn pipes, which whistle high D is better?

Peter's reply is correct. You really have to treat them as different instruments to suceed on both.

Best of luck with them too!

Tommy.

PS, I find that you do have to lift that top finger on the whistle to get a nice clear high D.

[Hummingbird]

Thanks for the replies folks,
ok, so it looks like I should go ahead and relearn that high d (darn, its easier to play the other way). On a more profound note, the two on-topic posts made me rethink my assumptions...I'd often heard it recommended that people should learn whistle before pipes, and I thought that one of the reasons given was to develop a repetoire first...but if they're that different, are you folks playing the same tunes on both instruments, or not? Or such different versions/experiences that it might as well be different tunes?

The reason I ask is, I'd thought I should get more serious about whistle playing and get better at that before I moved to pipes, but maybe this isn't so neccesary, and I could go to pipes sooner? FWIW, I already play highland pipes (and a bit of fiddle). I've had a couple of chances to try uilleann pipes, and a lot definitely felt familiar...Anyway, food for thought. I've digressed from my own topic, but replies nonetheless appreciated.

[djm]

Wan't it Cab Calloway who once said, "High D High D High"?

djm

[fgibbons]

I'd often heard it recommended that people should learn whistle before pipes, and I thought that one of the reasons given was to develop a repetoire first...but if they're that different, are you folks playing the same tunes on both instruments, or not? Or such different versions/experiences that it might as well be different tunes?

There may be many reasons for starting on the whistle before the pipes. Several that spring to mind are: hand size (for children), precedent, initial financial outlay (for parents of said children), and repertoire.

In Ireland:

* it's not uncommon to start learning tunes on the whistle at age 6 or 7, when many kids' hands would be too small to handle a chanter.

* thirty years ago, it was common to learn to play the whistle in school, as part of the regular curriculum. If everybody in your class is playing the whistle, that's what you'll learn too.

* if our seven-year old says she wants to learn to play music: are you going to run down to the local music shop and pick her up a whistle for 10 euro, and sign her up for a term at the local Comhaltas class the following week? Or are you going to put down 500-1000 euros, then wait several months for delivery?

But as adult learners outside of Ireland (as I think most readers are), the size of your hands, and the size of your checkbook may be the least of your worries. Repertoire and style will be the big issue, even if you've already mastered several instruments, even if one or more of those other instruments is another kind of bagpipe.

In a way, learning to play the UP is, like learning any instrument, similar to learning a foreign language. Sure, you can get by without really getting the hang of the grammar, and who needs the Subjunctive Mood anyway? Can't think of the right word? Well, try the English one, whoever you're speaking to will probably figure it out, right? Well, yeah, sort of.... but in playing music, to my way of thinking, you're not just trying to figure out the menu so you can eat, not just trying to figure out how to get back on the highway, or find that darn hotel (as in, "why do they have to make the streets so f**in narrow, and what's with this riDICulous oneway system!").

In music, you're trying to make something beautiful. And that means you need to express yourself precisely, and in a native idiom. You don't want people constantly commenting on how 'cute' your foreign accent is - you want them to listen to what you're saying, not HOW you're saying it. Learning the repertoire of tunes helps build up your "vocabulary" and phrasing, and I think that's where the whistle comes in, as a gateway to piping. Almost anyone can make fairly pleasant noises with the whistle almost immediately, and straight away start learning the vocabulary of Irish music. That means not just the bones of the tunes, but also the "enunciation" (rolls, crans, tonguing), and what the unwritten rules of rhythmic and melodic variation are. And getting a feel for the correct rhythm of a roll, or when to tongue, is really quite difficult for adult learners who are new to Irish music, it seems to me. It's also crucial for "speaking like a native". So really, I think the whistle can help a lot in "accent reduction" (to push the foreign-language metaphor to its limit).

If you've had a chance to read the latest "Piper's Review", you'll have read Ronan Browne's discussion of his "Learn to listen, listen to learn" theory - that once you can hear it in your head, you really don't need that much formal guidance any more (I'm paraphrasing it, but hopefully not butchering it). When you do move to the chanter from the whistle, you've got much of that already inside your head, which makes it easier to deal with the mechanics of the pipes. To my mind, that's the real argument for adults to start on the whistle. It's true, the mechanics of the whistle and chanter are quite different, but I think it's easy for pipers (especially experienced ones) to focus on the minutiae of style (quite rightly), and overlook the commonalities between them.

Every instrument has its own sub-culture, with tunes that somehow seem to fit better than others. But clearly, there is a vast common repertoire too, and many people have learned to play the whistle before progressing to other instruments (e.g., fiddlers, fluters) so tunes learnt on the whistle will rarely be unknown to players of other instruments. There's clearly a huge difference between reading the Wall Street Journal and the works of John B. Keane, but to a learner of English, they look very similar, and the differences become apparent only after getting the basics of the language down.

Wow, that was long.

-Frank

[psychodonald]

Frank: Wow!!!!! That in my opinion was right on. Nicely stated.

[psychodonald]

Dave:
I'm afraid that it wasn't Cab Calloway who stated: "High D, High D, High." I think it was "Woody" in Toy Story 2, or that Sponge Bob dude; by the way, both of whom are real. Don.

[djm]

Don, I bag to defer. Check out The Blues Brothers.

djm

[dyersituations]

You could probably just go straight to pipes, but only if you have the money, time, and a good teacher nearby. If you decide to do this, make sure to get a good set, because bad sets are too much trouble.

I am also of the opinion that learning music on any instrument, like the whistle, will help you greatly if you decide to go to pipes. The whistle translates a good deal to the pipes. Though the fingerings are different, after you get the pipes fingerings under control, there's no problem. Also, there are similar ornamentations, like rolls and taps and cuts and whatnot. So, playing the whistle I think will help. Also, just from playing with pipers in sessions and watching pros, I have learned about the instrument as well.

I don't know your past experience, but I'd say, just get into the music however you can and want. If you really want to do the pipes, have the money, and can find some local players, why not if it's what you want to play?

-Casey

[PaisleyBuddy]

because it lent itself to better ornamentation on the high d.

Surely you mean Back D ( middle D) I only know one tune in 100 that I can play a High D and ornamentation is is not even a thought, it is too easy to lose the octave.