Hello everyone.
I've recently purchased a set of practice pipes from a friend's father and I'm now spending way too much time squatting in the basement of the house, annoying the hell out of my roommates with incessant practicing.
I'd also like to mention how wildly excited I am to actually find a messageboard on UPs, and I am grateful (very very very very) that you are here. The only other person who plays the pipes within a twelve hour drive is the guy I bought my set from and he's only been playing about six months more than me. I've been playing for a month, so you see some of the problem. I live in a bit of a geographic vaccum when it comes to Celtic music, you see... There, all done now.
I have come across a few problems that I haven't been able to solve myself, so I am here to ask you folks if you could help.
The first thing is that I can't get the 2nd octave A and above to play without 'cheating', that is playing the F# or G and then just lifting the A finger. From there I can play B, C (#? nat? I'm not sure) and D, but only if I keep one note open while going to the other. Is there something I might be doing wrong? Or is that just the way this cookie will decay?
Next, I am having some problems with... well, my set of pipes are awfully screechy, enough so that they sometimes hurt my ears a little when I practice. The chanter is made of maple, and the (ahem, 'scuse my ignorance here) bit the chanter fits into is also made of maple. Most of what I've read on other sites suggests that this peice should be made out of metal of some kind. Will this contribute significantly to the quality of sound?
Last question. For now. I have noticed that my 2nd octave E requires massively more airflow than any note around it. The pressure required is enough to exhaust my left arm rather quickly, and it throws my rhythm off quite a bit. I've spoken to the other piper in my area about this and he just shrugged and asked me to let him know if I figured it out, so I'm thinking maybe he's not sure either. I'm sure the 1st octave E is in tune; this only happens in the 2nd octave.
Well, that's it, I'll stop now. I'd like to say thanks once again. Even if noone replies, it's rather cathartic just to be able to type these questions out.
Yours, (checking the site about once every thirty seconds)
Mark
I say hello... then ask many things
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ErikT
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Well Mark,
Welcome! I barely know what a U-pipe looks like (saw my first live one at a session last week) but since you're checking every 30 seconds I thought that I'd better a least welcome you to all that is Chiff and Fipple.
I can't answer your questions, but I have no doubt that folks here can.
Peace,
Erik
Welcome! I barely know what a U-pipe looks like (saw my first live one at a session last week) but since you're checking every 30 seconds I thought that I'd better a least welcome you to all that is Chiff and Fipple.
I can't answer your questions, but I have no doubt that folks here can.
Peace,
Erik
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Cayden
Briefly:
going up to octave A' is not 'cheating' is the only way, you should though shorten the 'leading movements'so that you actually don't hear the notes leading up to the high ones.
Your reed is probably too open, that's probably why it's loud and hard to play
A chanter head or reed cap or whatever you want to call it can be made of any material, most are made of metal because pipemakers cut cost, wood is fine and should even sound slightly better (matter of resonance)
Octave E is a problem on a lot (if not most) wide bore concert pitch chanter, again the reed may aggravate the problem but it may also be the chanter design. Then again, you may be blowing it too hard in your efforts of getting there. Hard to tell from here.
going up to octave A' is not 'cheating' is the only way, you should though shorten the 'leading movements'so that you actually don't hear the notes leading up to the high ones.
Your reed is probably too open, that's probably why it's loud and hard to play
A chanter head or reed cap or whatever you want to call it can be made of any material, most are made of metal because pipemakers cut cost, wood is fine and should even sound slightly better (matter of resonance)
Octave E is a problem on a lot (if not most) wide bore concert pitch chanter, again the reed may aggravate the problem but it may also be the chanter design. Then again, you may be blowing it too hard in your efforts of getting there. Hard to tell from here.
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Tony
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Mark... WELCOME ABOARD !!
So what do you think of Uilleann Pipes ?? Awesome, aren't they ??
In a few short words, you've got more information available to you via internet than you can possibly imagine! Just think, pipers of generations ago never had such access to the resources we have today.
There are many 'correct' answers to your questions and you might try different methods and arrive at your own solution.
Your 2nd octave question could be the result of several things. Without actually playing your pipes I can only give you examples to follow. If the reed is too stiff it might need sanding or scraping. This physically changes the reed but you cannot reverse the process should you want to go back to a previous thickness. I would only resort to this if you can't get results from adjusting the the bridle (that's the wire or thin metal band around the reed just above the wrapping) SMALL adjustments result in BIG changes so go easy and only move in amounts about the thickness of a pencil line.
Try moving the bridal closer toward the wrapping as it should allow the elevation (opening between the reed lips) to drop. This will make playing easier and slightly quieter. Your tuning may change slightly... but we can address that later. Does your second octave become easier to hold ??
Cutting, or quickly playing a note to get to another note (as in a 2nd octave) is part of a Uilleann's playing technique... especially if you want you chanter to play loud and vibrant and don't want it to jump second octaves or excessively squeal due to overscraping the reed or adjusting too tightly.
The top of the chanter has a 'windcap'. This is the shield for access to the reed and it can be all metal or wood and metal. For conversation, I used to believe the wood caps made a sweeter sound, until I had a pipemaker play a chanter with a metal one and switch to a wooden one. I couldn't hear any difference and he agreed with me.
If the volume of the chanter bothers your ears, wear earplugs... I do !! When I play for extended periods I often wear earplugs AND industrial style ear muffs. Protect your hearing... you won't get it back should you loose it.
E isn't the easiest note to get on pipes. Often you have to 'lean into it' with much bag pressure especially if it's flat and the pressure brings it into tune. Logically, look how many holes are covered! It's just a quirk of this instrument and you will have to learn to adjust bag pressure for this. Try practicing back D and high E... go back and forth between those notes. Sometimes my reed gets crasy in humid weather and my back D 'sinks' a half step lower if the pressure is too high, so it's a lesson I have to practice myself.
Just keep practicing those pipes and tell your roomates that earplugs are inexpensive!
So what do you think of Uilleann Pipes ?? Awesome, aren't they ??
In a few short words, you've got more information available to you via internet than you can possibly imagine! Just think, pipers of generations ago never had such access to the resources we have today.
There are many 'correct' answers to your questions and you might try different methods and arrive at your own solution.
Your 2nd octave question could be the result of several things. Without actually playing your pipes I can only give you examples to follow. If the reed is too stiff it might need sanding or scraping. This physically changes the reed but you cannot reverse the process should you want to go back to a previous thickness. I would only resort to this if you can't get results from adjusting the the bridle (that's the wire or thin metal band around the reed just above the wrapping) SMALL adjustments result in BIG changes so go easy and only move in amounts about the thickness of a pencil line.
Try moving the bridal closer toward the wrapping as it should allow the elevation (opening between the reed lips) to drop. This will make playing easier and slightly quieter. Your tuning may change slightly... but we can address that later. Does your second octave become easier to hold ??
Cutting, or quickly playing a note to get to another note (as in a 2nd octave) is part of a Uilleann's playing technique... especially if you want you chanter to play loud and vibrant and don't want it to jump second octaves or excessively squeal due to overscraping the reed or adjusting too tightly.
The top of the chanter has a 'windcap'. This is the shield for access to the reed and it can be all metal or wood and metal. For conversation, I used to believe the wood caps made a sweeter sound, until I had a pipemaker play a chanter with a metal one and switch to a wooden one. I couldn't hear any difference and he agreed with me.
If the volume of the chanter bothers your ears, wear earplugs... I do !! When I play for extended periods I often wear earplugs AND industrial style ear muffs. Protect your hearing... you won't get it back should you loose it.
E isn't the easiest note to get on pipes. Often you have to 'lean into it' with much bag pressure especially if it's flat and the pressure brings it into tune. Logically, look how many holes are covered! It's just a quirk of this instrument and you will have to learn to adjust bag pressure for this. Try practicing back D and high E... go back and forth between those notes. Sometimes my reed gets crasy in humid weather and my back D 'sinks' a half step lower if the pressure is too high, so it's a lesson I have to practice myself.
Just keep practicing those pipes and tell your roomates that earplugs are inexpensive!
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Cayden
If you need to wear earplugs practicing your pipes something is SERIOUSLY wrong either with your pipes or yourselves. The pipes need not and should not sound that loud. If they do see your pipemaker and tell him to make you a decent instrument, better still do yourselves a favour get yourselves a flat set.
As to the octave E, try sliding into it from ghost D (i.e. only left little finger off). Again, if this doesn't work or still requeres a lot of pressure: see your pipemaker as your reed is not well set up, this note should not be an effort to play and don't let anybody tell you otherwise.
As to the octave E, try sliding into it from ghost D (i.e. only left little finger off). Again, if this doesn't work or still requeres a lot of pressure: see your pipemaker as your reed is not well set up, this note should not be an effort to play and don't let anybody tell you otherwise.
I agree with Peter. The reed probably needs adjusting, most likely a very slight adjustment of the bridle. The 2nd E should be fairly easy to play with only a little extra pressure on the bag. It sounds like you are new to the pipes, so I would follow Peter's advice and have an experienced player or maker adjust the reed for you. I am willing to bet that the reed adjustment will not only cure the 2nd octave E problem but that the loudness will no longer be a problem and intonation will be better as well.
Ailin
Ailin
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Tony
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Peter, In your professional opinion, what volume should D chanters perform at?? I don't own a decibel meter, but perhaps I should invest in one. Please indicate the proper volume my chanters are to play at. I'll feel much better having this information when I tell Gallagher, Childress and Mackenzie that Peter Laban said your chanter is too loud and to make me a decent instrument.On 2001-10-21 10:16, Peter Laban wrote:
If you need to wear earplugs practicing your pipes something is SERIOUSLY wrong either with your pipes or yourselves. The pipes need not and should not sound that loud. If they do see your pipemaker and tell him to make you a decent instrument, better still do yourselves a favour get yourselves a flat set.
As to the octave E, try sliding into it from ghost D (i.e. only left little finger off). Again, if this doesn't work or still requeres a lot of pressure: see your pipemaker as your reed is not well set up, this note should not be an effort to play and don't let anybody tell you otherwise.
While on the subject of (narrow bore) flat sets being quieter than (wide bore) Concert sets, Why would you suggest we 'do ourselves a favour'. Is it your advise to play flat sets in sessions? Do you recommend C# over the others ??
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Brian Lee
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I'm no expert by ANY stretch, and I don't even have my own set to play everyday...YET. BUT, I can tell you that I noticed a LOT of difference in chanter volume from one maker to the next.
If it were whistles, I'd compare one makers to a tweaked Clarke original, and another to playing third octave D on an Overton wide bore!
This was my dilema when trying to choose a maker. (see thread on "Super-Mellow Sets") I've heard some makers PURPOSELY design their chanters to only play loud and in tune, while others tend towards a quieter tone.
Yes, as with whistles, the lower in pitch you go, the 'softer' the tone will be as a general rule. However, in a session, you'l still most likely want a D set, and perhaps you may have occasion to use a C chanter. But every single session I've played across the country, I've only needed a D whistle, and once in a blue moon a C whistle.
Flat sets are positively beautiful, but difficult to play with others on...unless, that is, they're masters at transposition.
Now, before I get flamed for sounding pompous and know-it-allish, I DON'T know it all, and if anyone has anything to add to this, please do so - within reason.
B~
If it were whistles, I'd compare one makers to a tweaked Clarke original, and another to playing third octave D on an Overton wide bore!
This was my dilema when trying to choose a maker. (see thread on "Super-Mellow Sets") I've heard some makers PURPOSELY design their chanters to only play loud and in tune, while others tend towards a quieter tone.
Yes, as with whistles, the lower in pitch you go, the 'softer' the tone will be as a general rule. However, in a session, you'l still most likely want a D set, and perhaps you may have occasion to use a C chanter. But every single session I've played across the country, I've only needed a D whistle, and once in a blue moon a C whistle.
Flat sets are positively beautiful, but difficult to play with others on...unless, that is, they're masters at transposition.
Now, before I get flamed for sounding pompous and know-it-allish, I DON'T know it all, and if anyone has anything to add to this, please do so - within reason.
B~
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Brian Lee
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Just to clarify, for those curious...
Quinn D Chanter: Mellowest and still the sweetest I've yet heard. VERY nicely in tune, and even in tone and temperment.
Gallagher D: Mid-volume, and slightly bright in tone. Again, spot-on tuning, with a slightly more varied tone from note to note - more noticeable than the Quinn.
Childress D, C, Bb: VERY LOUD CHANTERS!!! seemed the least balanced with drones concerning overall volumes. Brightest tone. NOT mellow sets. Would stand out extremely well in large sessions. Tuning was good. Somewhat tiring to listen to for extended periods.
*******DISCLAIMER********
These are MY opinions, and no one elses. I'M NO EXPERT!!!! Please take this critique with a grain of salt and an order of cheese fries. Someday I MAY be an expert, but today is not that day.
As a beginner, I only know what my ears and my brain likes and doesn't like. Right now, I likes me them thar mellow sets!
B~
Quinn D Chanter: Mellowest and still the sweetest I've yet heard. VERY nicely in tune, and even in tone and temperment.
Gallagher D: Mid-volume, and slightly bright in tone. Again, spot-on tuning, with a slightly more varied tone from note to note - more noticeable than the Quinn.
Childress D, C, Bb: VERY LOUD CHANTERS!!! seemed the least balanced with drones concerning overall volumes. Brightest tone. NOT mellow sets. Would stand out extremely well in large sessions. Tuning was good. Somewhat tiring to listen to for extended periods.
*******DISCLAIMER********
These are MY opinions, and no one elses. I'M NO EXPERT!!!! Please take this critique with a grain of salt and an order of cheese fries. Someday I MAY be an expert, but today is not that day.
As a beginner, I only know what my ears and my brain likes and doesn't like. Right now, I likes me them thar mellow sets!
B~
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Cayden
I wouldn't put a decibel meter onto it, chanter perform at different volumes according to their design. If you feel the need however to wear ear protection you can be sure there is something seriously wrong. This is a musical instrument that is supposed to sound pleasant. If it gets tiring listening to it for longer streches, do some soulsearching and wonder what's wrong here.
If you feel the need to tell your pipemaker his pipes are too loud, do so, I would and have done so in the past. Partly a matter of opinion ofcourse, some chanters however are being set up much too loud for their physical capabilities, they get problems caused by a too loud reed (and no I won't go into that here) and they are ugly misconceptions. I don't mind saying so. I think pipers should stop accepting bad instruments and if everybody goes tiptoeing politely around the makers of unpleasant instruments nothing will change.
Personally I just play a C set, and feck the sessions, I'll play a whistle in session instead. (You will get blackballed here in Clare anyway for bringing a loud D set to a session.)
So yes, I would recommend getting a (decent)flat set (not a loud wide bore, scaled down concert pitchdesign I mean), they sound much nicer and are capable of a more musical way of playing, are likely to give you much less problems in the way of tuning, set up of reeds and making reeds (they are much easier to fit), they give you a much happier relationship with your instrument, your music, your neighbours, your wife/girlfriend (partner, if you please) and (other) musicicans.
As for sessions, while you get me going, they are nice, occasionally. A good session with friends is a mighty thing although I would not prefer to play with a large group, two or three in addition to the pipes suits me well, I like to hear what every individual player is doing. I don't think there's much point to the big 'wall of sound' sessions where every nuance and expression gets lost. But that may be a different subject so I'll let it rest.
I do get enough concertina players in my key and fiddleplayers tuning down to keep me happy in that respect.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2001-10-22 04:20 ]</font>
If you feel the need to tell your pipemaker his pipes are too loud, do so, I would and have done so in the past. Partly a matter of opinion ofcourse, some chanters however are being set up much too loud for their physical capabilities, they get problems caused by a too loud reed (and no I won't go into that here) and they are ugly misconceptions. I don't mind saying so. I think pipers should stop accepting bad instruments and if everybody goes tiptoeing politely around the makers of unpleasant instruments nothing will change.
Personally I just play a C set, and feck the sessions, I'll play a whistle in session instead. (You will get blackballed here in Clare anyway for bringing a loud D set to a session.)
So yes, I would recommend getting a (decent)flat set (not a loud wide bore, scaled down concert pitchdesign I mean), they sound much nicer and are capable of a more musical way of playing, are likely to give you much less problems in the way of tuning, set up of reeds and making reeds (they are much easier to fit), they give you a much happier relationship with your instrument, your music, your neighbours, your wife/girlfriend (partner, if you please) and (other) musicicans.
As for sessions, while you get me going, they are nice, occasionally. A good session with friends is a mighty thing although I would not prefer to play with a large group, two or three in addition to the pipes suits me well, I like to hear what every individual player is doing. I don't think there's much point to the big 'wall of sound' sessions where every nuance and expression gets lost. But that may be a different subject so I'll let it rest.
I do get enough concertina players in my key and fiddleplayers tuning down to keep me happy in that respect.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Peter Laban on 2001-10-22 04:20 ]</font>
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Tony
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Peter... agreed.
Not every chanter plays the same. There are variances in chanters from the same pipemaker using the same woods. That's just a part of the instrument.
I have 3 similar designed chanters in different woods by different makers and each has it's own personality. The one I prefer most, tunes better, plays more vibrant and happens to play the loudest. Despite attempts to adjust the reed, it just plays better on the loud side.
-----
Wearing hearing protection is becoming more the norm from professional musicians. When you consider practice a few hours each day plus performances times 30+ years you can expect some hearing loss without wearing protection.
You can have your own opinion about this... just remember, you can't get your hearing back should you loose it.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tony on 2001-10-22 05:28 ]</font>
Not every chanter plays the same. There are variances in chanters from the same pipemaker using the same woods. That's just a part of the instrument.
I have 3 similar designed chanters in different woods by different makers and each has it's own personality. The one I prefer most, tunes better, plays more vibrant and happens to play the loudest. Despite attempts to adjust the reed, it just plays better on the loud side.
-----
Wearing hearing protection is becoming more the norm from professional musicians. When you consider practice a few hours each day plus performances times 30+ years you can expect some hearing loss without wearing protection.
You can have your own opinion about this... just remember, you can't get your hearing back should you loose it.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Tony on 2001-10-22 05:28 ]</font>
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jqpublick
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Holy Mackerel! I seem to have started a discussion of sorts. Thank you all for your rapid responses, you've given me one heck of a lot to try out.
I've tried adjusting the bridle in the past, and while I DID get a much quieter sound, I found that it was many times harder to play in tune, but quoting what Peter Laban said;
"I do get enough concertina players in my key and fiddleplayers tuning down to keep me happy in that respect."
I'm guessing that playing with other musicians requires THEM to tune to ME, is that right? If so, then I'm happier than before, and here's why.
I had a couple of folks at a party lately (after insisting that I pull the pipes out, disregarding my increasingly paniced reply of 'but.... I just started!') tell me that I needed to really work on my tuning, yet afterwards one of the other folks at the party mentioned that he wasn't sure what they were talking about 'because you sounded in tune to yourself to me'.
And yes, I am awfully new to the pipes, I've had mine only about a month or so, but I have taken to them like an addict, about two to five hours a day, depending on how much time I have. I work a midnight shift (most of the time) so I'll play for a while before I go to work, then play a bit more before I go to bed. Keeps me sane, I think.
I'm not certain yet if it's just my fumbling about, pressing too hard on the bag (possibly overblowing) or if this chanter is just set to play too loud, or if the bridle on the reed is off, but the thing that caught me initially about the pipes themselves was the sweetness of tone, as well as the purity of a slow air in a solo peice or two that I heard, and I guess the volume/tone of the pipes I have surprised me a bit.
You've all given me a lot to work on and think about and I will take my pipes over to the other, slightly-more-experienced-than-me piper's and we'll work ont the bridle together, and see if that helps at all, which I think it will.
Now, one last question for now: Has anyone here heard of Neal O'Grady? He's a maker in Canada and I've contacted him about getting another chanter in cocobolo. I'd appreciate it if anyone has any opinions about his pipes, etc.
And once again, thanks everyone for being around and replying so quickly! I feel kind of awkward about taking two days to reply, but the work schedule and the on again, off again nature of the dial-up connection at home has made it more difficult than I thought it would be to keep up with this posting. Also, I have to admit I didn't expect ELEVEN responses this quickly!
Thanks, again,
Mark
I've tried adjusting the bridle in the past, and while I DID get a much quieter sound, I found that it was many times harder to play in tune, but quoting what Peter Laban said;
"I do get enough concertina players in my key and fiddleplayers tuning down to keep me happy in that respect."
I'm guessing that playing with other musicians requires THEM to tune to ME, is that right? If so, then I'm happier than before, and here's why.
I had a couple of folks at a party lately (after insisting that I pull the pipes out, disregarding my increasingly paniced reply of 'but.... I just started!') tell me that I needed to really work on my tuning, yet afterwards one of the other folks at the party mentioned that he wasn't sure what they were talking about 'because you sounded in tune to yourself to me'.
And yes, I am awfully new to the pipes, I've had mine only about a month or so, but I have taken to them like an addict, about two to five hours a day, depending on how much time I have. I work a midnight shift (most of the time) so I'll play for a while before I go to work, then play a bit more before I go to bed. Keeps me sane, I think.
I'm not certain yet if it's just my fumbling about, pressing too hard on the bag (possibly overblowing) or if this chanter is just set to play too loud, or if the bridle on the reed is off, but the thing that caught me initially about the pipes themselves was the sweetness of tone, as well as the purity of a slow air in a solo peice or two that I heard, and I guess the volume/tone of the pipes I have surprised me a bit.
You've all given me a lot to work on and think about and I will take my pipes over to the other, slightly-more-experienced-than-me piper's and we'll work ont the bridle together, and see if that helps at all, which I think it will.
Now, one last question for now: Has anyone here heard of Neal O'Grady? He's a maker in Canada and I've contacted him about getting another chanter in cocobolo. I'd appreciate it if anyone has any opinions about his pipes, etc.
And once again, thanks everyone for being around and replying so quickly! I feel kind of awkward about taking two days to reply, but the work schedule and the on again, off again nature of the dial-up connection at home has made it more difficult than I thought it would be to keep up with this posting. Also, I have to admit I didn't expect ELEVEN responses this quickly!
Thanks, again,
Mark
12th Reply:
There seem to be a wide range of "grades" of chanter volume; may be a standard of some kind should be brought up?
Keep in mind that the pitch of the instrument means little. You can make a blisteringly loud Bb chanter, and some have. Loud, flatter pitches are kind of mellower, in a way, sort of. My question for you pipemakers: WHY? Why build a blaring loud instrument in B? So you can be heard over your friend's B flute?
The pattern I see is that the smaller the fingerholes and bore, the lovelier the sound. You should contrast some records, Robbie Hannon's 1st versus Leo Ricard, maybe. Lots of great music in those loud chanters, I'd be the last to deny. But you should know what you're getting into.
My old D chanter is louder than the old flat pipes by far, but quieter than a lot of chanters made then or now. It's just right for a session, but too loud for playing with 2 or 3 people, I think. You might ask a maker how big those fingerholes are. The truly old style chanters had holes of about 11/64, max. Medium loud is maybe 3/16", tops. Some real blasters are 5/16"-or more. That's loud.
A nice thing for the 21st century would be a way of conveying just how loud an instrument is, over the Net. Until then-I'd say a mellow flat set is never louder than a typical acoustic guitar.
There seem to be a wide range of "grades" of chanter volume; may be a standard of some kind should be brought up?
Keep in mind that the pitch of the instrument means little. You can make a blisteringly loud Bb chanter, and some have. Loud, flatter pitches are kind of mellower, in a way, sort of. My question for you pipemakers: WHY? Why build a blaring loud instrument in B? So you can be heard over your friend's B flute?
The pattern I see is that the smaller the fingerholes and bore, the lovelier the sound. You should contrast some records, Robbie Hannon's 1st versus Leo Ricard, maybe. Lots of great music in those loud chanters, I'd be the last to deny. But you should know what you're getting into.
My old D chanter is louder than the old flat pipes by far, but quieter than a lot of chanters made then or now. It's just right for a session, but too loud for playing with 2 or 3 people, I think. You might ask a maker how big those fingerholes are. The truly old style chanters had holes of about 11/64, max. Medium loud is maybe 3/16", tops. Some real blasters are 5/16"-or more. That's loud.
A nice thing for the 21st century would be a way of conveying just how loud an instrument is, over the Net. Until then-I'd say a mellow flat set is never louder than a typical acoustic guitar.