Cutting down on Waiting Lists

stew · Post by **stew** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 3:41 pm

Boyd,
That saying is not always true especially if the customer
don't know what he's talking about just like there are some
makers that dont know what there talking about either who
just work from a plan and can't play.

tansy · Post by **tansy** » Mon Jun 02, 2003 7:06 pm

aye i want be boyd, peter's statement just kind of rubbed my fur agin the grain. i am very kind and cosiderate to my pipe maker friends, they know i truely value them and their special time and knowledge

.

boyd · Post by **boyd** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 2:15 am

[..they don't have an Emoticon with a tongue in it's cheek..]

Boyd

Pat Cannady · Post by **Pat Cannady** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 1:31 pm

There's also customers who purchase sets on the speculation that they can sell them at a profit...They don't help with high cost/high demand problem at all.

meir · Post by **meir** » Tue Jun 03, 2003 2:55 pm

Pat Cannady wrote:There's also customers who purchase sets on the speculation that they can sell them at a profit...They don't help with high cost/high demand problem at all.

those buying on speculation are not the problem. thats just good old american enterprise and entails some risk. buyers can vote with their dollars (and increase the risk) by not buying such sets. although each buyer must decide for her/himself what to do, i would rather wait and know that i have a personal relationship with my pipe maker.

meir

stew · Post by **stew** » Wed Jun 04, 2003 10:29 am

Meir,
Well said I can not understand anyone thinking of buying
second hand pipes as a beginner unless they know the seller
or they know a piper who can try playing the set for them
before parting with there cash they very well might be made
by a good maker but but who knows if they been damaged or
tampered with we only here about the good sets of makers
but what about there bad sets if people are after practice sets
Hevia, Parrado Y Aragon are giving 21 days for practices sets
and they come with 12 months warranty and a case and with
there craftsmanship thats were I'd go the arhpa practice set
get to know your pipe maker if not buy from a maker who gives
a warranty in writing not verbally been there got the badge.

Keith · Post by **Keith** » Thu Jun 05, 2003 2:00 am

Stew,

Punctuation mate - fantastic innovation from at least Roman times: makes it a little easier to figure out what you're saying.

Cheers, Keith

stew · Post by **stew** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 6:15 am

keith,

What I am saying is we only here about good sets by the more famous
makers but we do not here about there bad sets, the bad sets get past
on for sale so the buyer can get most of his money back how would a
beginner know if in the set he or she had a bad chanter or set of regs.

I would not recommend any beginner to buy a second hand set of pipes
unless they knew a piper who could lend a hand with there experience
in trying the set out, or if they knew the seller were trust worthy, I think
its about time people ordering or buying a set of pipes get in writing what
they are getting from the maker or seller or what they will get for there
money so if the set is faulty or poorly made they've got something to use in recovering there money back, it would help get many problems solved and if not they could use the small claims courts, you know as I do these
instruments are not cheap thousand of pounds or dollars I have never
seen so many sets of Uilleann pipes for sale on the NPU why are these
sets not selling if there OK.

I can't believe people waiting for pipes on lists for seven to ten years
Hevia, Parrado Y Aragon are giving 21 day for there arhpa practice sets the chanter has a C nat key fitted and carrying case included in the price
there half sets the delivery time is 3 months all there sets come with a
12 month warranty, on there site you will see that they have made
chanters for Paddy Mollonie and there craftsmanship is fantastic, I play
on a concert "D"custom half set plays fine, next year I'll get some new
regs or maybe I'll find a good second hand set as long as the wood the
same I can soon make some ferrules to match them up with the set and I will get the sound I want, theres nothing wrong with a miss match set if it sound and looks OK probably better than some of the complete sets I've heard anyway there not a fashion item, Tony has the finest looking
set I've seen so far.

Mark Byrne · Post by **Mark Byrne** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 6:20 pm

For what its worth I'll toss my opinion in on the matter. NPU have roughly 50 full time makers listed on their site. Now of these 50 makers you can most likely count on one hand the ones who have a waiting list greater than 2 years. Is this coincidence? you bet your life its not. Now I'm not an experienced player (just over 2 years under my belt), but I know what sounds nice and what doesn't, and there are some sets that I've heard from fellow students at NPU Tuesday night classes which will actually make you cringe when played, and certainly would have turned me off the instrument had I started on any of them. Again no coincidence that these same makers have little or no waiting list. The real pain is that NPU don't give a toss which makers end up on their list of full time makers, and lets face it parents who have bought rubbish for their children only for them to pack it in because of sub standard instruments robs all of us of some potentially magnificent pipers. NPU needs to do 2 things in my opinion.
1. Rate instruments: Every maker is required to supply a practice set to NPU for their pipes on loan scheme to qualify for the privelege of being listed as a full time maker (you don't supply well then your not listed). Now they can be rated. I know only too well that personal tastes will always differ, but I'd be willing to wager that if 3 to 4 of the NPU board evaluated each makers instruments you could be guaranteed that the rubbish would be genuinely weeded out.
2. NPU needs to establish a pipemaking school of excellence. They promote the instrument very well but do nothing in terms of producing makers. All resources outside of general administration and teaching should be directed at making the instrument.

To get back to the original thread subject, cutting down on waiting times will only be achieved by makers who can make good pipes and no matter what way you look at it there is precious few of them.

regards,
Mark.

Edited to remove swear words(sorry).

anima · Post by **anima** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 6:58 pm

Making NPU an "accrediting" bureau isn't the answer, nor does it guarantee the quality of a maker's pipes. A dishonest maker may pour all he has into the one set of pipes he sends off to NPU and then go back to making borderline or substandard sets. And is the maker just supposed to "donate" his pipes to NPU to get them accredited and put on the loaner list? Rather a lot to ask of someone to give away something of that much value. And who then benefits from the NPU loaners? Only those people who live in Ireland, there are lots of us NPU members who live outside of the country who cannot take advantage of such largesse from the makers and NPU.

Now dont' get me wrong, I too agree that NPU could take a more active stance (if they wanted to, and they may just want to stay out of it) on promoting the production of quality instruments. But I'm not sure your method is the right way of doing it. Perhaps it's just my American/capitalist background, but the market always seems to level itself out - leave it to the consumers to sort it out. Poor quality and service will eventually become known. People need to do their homework before buying anything this expensive. Caveat Emptor.

Just my take on it.

Jeff

j dasinger · Post by **j dasinger** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 8:06 pm

All,
While I agree with Mr. Byrne that it would be nice to have some reference to turn to regarding a rating for pipemakers, I think that it is highly doubtful this will come about when people on these lists will not publicly state their opinions on makers for fear of being "impolite." While I understand that everyone wants to avoid flame wars and "my pipes are better than your pipes" arguments, surely with 50 or more makers in the world, it's not sticking one's neck out too far to list a "Top 10." I've found that after reading this and the listserv uillean boards for over a year, I still couldn't tell you who the top 10 makers are. I think I can come up with the top 3, Wooff, Williams and Froment. But that's not much to show for a year and a half of searching for this knowledge. I think that it would be nice to see a thread stating people's opinions on their favorite pipes in "Top 10 list" format. Everyone just needs to remember to be cool and keep in mind that it's just individuals opinions. Actually, I think from a beginners standpoint, that it would be much more interesting to see discussion of the "mid-range" makers; both price- and wait-wise. The makers I listed above are basically non-viable for a beginner. Their wait times and prices make them a bad choice for someone starting out. The average player needs to know about makers whose pipes he can get ahold of this century. Anyway, I'd like to ask Mr. Byrne, since he has heard many different maker's pipes at Henrietta street, who HIS top 10 list includes.
peace
jd

anima · Post by **anima** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 8:30 pm

and I thinkyou could add Lynch, Gallagher, and Quinn to your list to bring it up to 6 (and probaby the top 3 US makers).

Jeff

j dasinger · Post by **j dasinger** » Fri Jun 06, 2003 9:30 pm

Yeah, I forgot about Koehler/Quinn, definately up there. I don't know about Gallagher or Lynch. While they are well known in the US, I don't know if thats the case in the rest of the world. On the other hand, you could probably say that they are in the top 10.
I had a thought that one could also go about this by looking at waiting list times. That would probably give a good idea as to which makers are perceived to be the best by the pipe-buying public. Can anyone quote some waiting list times (for any maker that you are aware of). I think a couple like Quinn and Wooff have waiting times of "never." I.e. their books are closed. Just a thought.
jd

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 5:19 am

Mark Byrne has a good point saying that most pipes young kids learning are faced with are atrocious. And anyone teaching the pipes will know the problem of students with virtually unplayable instruments [as well as the working but awful sounding ones]. I don’t actually see ‘the market’ levelling that out, on the contrary most of the atrocious makers seemed to have sprung up after the current post riverdance hype in piping. And indeed at any tionol or summerschool people can be seen staring in admiration at the most horrible contraptions, thinking that this is the way pipes should be. For the record, the pipes shouldn't be a hassle, if theyare set up well they are easy to play and will generally work easily, even if sensitive for humidity and temperature changes [that may throw them off occasionally].

I don’t see how NPU can have a function ‘accrediting’ pipes, who will set the criteria and it is also a very small world. I remember one very well-known piper saying in the context of a particular maker’s work, that he doesn’t like it at all but would never be seen in public saying that because he is dependant on your man to make reeds for him. And then you see notices here that so and so plays a chanter by such and such so it must be a good chanter. Yeah, well, maybe.

Taste and personal requirements are another thing. I get questions asked from members of this forum, to recommend a pipemaker, these days I usually reply that I cannot recommend anyone [despite my own strong opinions on the matter], what would suit me may not suit you and what would be great for you may not be great for me at all. Find something to suit your own style.

Personally, I wouldn’t be able to list even a handful of pipe makers I would want a set of pipes by, mostly they are of the 'I could eventually get used to this' variety. Although the situation has improved since twenty years ago and very nice and playable pipes are being made, most pipers and especially learners still have to make do with what they can get and potentially promising pipers are put off because the quality and price of instruments.
There has been talk concerning a school of excellence for pipemaking for some time, unfortunately nothing much has yet been done towards it, despite promises by prominent pipemakers to put in the effort and pass on the skills once the course is established.

As to the complaint that only Irish people would benefit a pipes on loan scheme. Na Piobairi Uilleann has an aim to promote and strenghten the piping tradition. This, like it or not, will mean nourishing the talents of young Irish kids who have the music and are part of the culture and as it is there are by far more looking for practice sets than NPU can provide so you can hardly blame the organisation for trying to do what it was founded for.

Mypipes · Post by **Mypipes** » Sun Jun 08, 2003 6:47 am

Barring the foul language Mike Byrne has stated a good case but I do not believe NPU or any other organization should reign over the pipemakers. This forum is I think the best source to research on pipemakers..its word of mouth even if it is polite. When I came here a year and half ago I ended up ordering a Preshaw practice set and then a half set. RELATIVELY SHORT WAITNG LIST at the time. I believe he has served me well and I credit this forum for guiding me. I researched other Pipemakers and went to the private email system to get the negatives. I have also witnesses others struggle with pipes from a maker who had a long waing list...the maker no doubt would be on the NPU top list. The chanter bore holes didnt even line up and the reed was made for hercules. The beginner couldnt make the pipes fly.
I also know that the narrow bore crew doesnt care fo concert pitch etc and sometimes vise versa. There could be discrimination on that score alone. I also think there would be politics involved in getting on this list.

I think the choosing of the pipemaker is the prelude of just how difficult the instrument itself is. No matter what you do the pipes become easier as you study the information and take the time to learn.

P.S. Peter...your probably one of the most experienced pipers on this forum and I think that you should give us the benefit of such by recommending makers....???? Or if you see somebody going down the road to catastrophe send the private email ???