Cutting down on Waiting Lists

Uilliam · Post by **Uilliam** » Sat May 31, 2003 8:06 am

Prompted by Ricks comments on regulators I got to thinking that if people ordered their sets in a systematic way,ie practice ,drones,regs (when ready and if ye can play the rest of the set and if ye want them)Maybe one regulator at a time...That way instead of the makers time being loaded with orders for full sets from people who are more interested in running afore they can walk, distribution of sets would be quicker and more even handed.Plus ye wouldna have the daftness of having statements like can ye play the regs after having them for 2 years!!If ye have a set of regs on your set for two years and ye havna played them ye are clearly not ready for them,so let someone who is !!
Slan go foill

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Sat May 31, 2003 10:12 am

Doing it in one go is a lot more efficient time wise, from the pipemaker's point of view. No sending pipes across the world, no extra dealing with customers, no matching re balancing of things fitted earlier, all these things which are really just a waste of time.

Uilliam · Post by **Uilliam** » Sat May 31, 2003 12:30 pm

Au Contraire dear boy..I am talking about the ridiculous waiting lists now in being, tell any other musician that you are on a waiting list for13 years and they would think ye are mad!!
No, I am saying get the set you are ready for,that way many more beginners can be catered for from excellent makers.I never had any problems getting regulators added to my set when I was ready to play them.It stands to reason that a half set will be ready sooner than a full set,so why have a full set straight away thus causing bottlenecks of a mere 13 years.
I think Rowesome had it about right when he was making, when he wouldna make regulators for anyone unless they had been playing for 7 years.This helped to solve the supply and demand problem and also ensured that the prospective buyer was ready.
Just aside I have known of two uilleann pipe owners with full sets
One just played the regulators and drones(not the chanter..because he hadn't mastered it)
The other (a pipemaker) had three regulators on his set ,with keys,but they hadna been bored out so were just blank

Slan go foill

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Sat May 31, 2003 12:57 pm

Nobody is suggesting that you should start on the full set, although it is wellknown Johnny Doran started on the full set, straight into the regs and he seemed to have ended pretty much with the regs as an integrated part of his music while when I hear Leo Rowsome the reg playing seems fairly much disconnected from whatever else is going on. But not making too much of a point out of that[it's fairly easy to come up with one off examples that can make a point in any chosen direction], it is not a great idea getting the regs in instalments. Personally I went that way on my first set and it was not succesful for several reasons. It is from the pipemaker's point of view much easier to stick the whole thing together balance thout the various bits, align the keys etc rather than adding bits on every time and that was my point, it saves time.

Uilliam · Post by **Uilliam** » Sat May 31, 2003 2:47 pm

Some of the finest playing I have heard recently was Gay McK playing a Kenna set with only one regulator.I say only but in no way is that meant to be derogotory, many of the early sets had one regulator.A sweet sounding Hussey set 1820 here in Glasgow, has just the one reg.
I have 3 regs on my Bb but I take the Bass off and much prefer playing 3/4.
It has been said before and I concur that the full set is an overdeveloped instrument.
I am certainly not suggesting that one starts off with a full set,but it seems to be the fashion in the past few years (particularly with Americans)to obtain a full set as soon as is possible. And that, I suspect is, why there is a logjam from makers.I've seen complete beginners with the full shebang..
Anyways Peter we can agree to disagree. .
Slan

Tony · Post by **Tony** » Sat May 31, 2003 3:55 pm

I suppose it depends on the pipemaker and how his work gets booked.
Childress is currently 24 months for a practice set and 25 for a full set. Unless it has to do with finances, why wait to get back on the books for the upgrade?
Bagpipeworks is currently advertising 6 months for a practice set and 18 months for a full set. One might consider sending the bag back for the upgrade as this seems the general path to follow.

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Sat May 31, 2003 5:25 pm

I agree, you all make good points. But I would feel severely limited if I didn't have a full set. After all, how else would I "honk" while carrying my pipes though a crowd to the bar on St. Paddy's Day? There's nothing quite like still being strapped in, pumping up the bag a bit, and hitting the G/B on the regs along with the open high D on the chanter, and clearing a path! Kinda sounds like a locamotive movin through!

Cayden · Post by **Cayden** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 1:39 am

Uilliam wrote:Anyways Peter we can agree to disagree. .
Slan

We can but, and that happened before, we may not be so far apart at all.
I do agree some people are a bit over-anxious to get the whole thing, 'and can you do me an extended bass reg and maybe a double bass too, they look really neat in the old photographs and can I put the order for my B set in when I get this one?' without any outlook on their piping developing into anything at all. But maybe that's a slightly different issue altogether.
It's a bit of a stylistic issue too, if you listen too an earlier generation playing, the Rowsome influenced say, you'll notice the use of the bass reg was far more than it is in present day styleintegrated [I was thinking of the likes of Willie Clancy, Tommy Kearney etc. but it was actually having a tune with Tommy McCarthy that made me realise it some years ago], a three quarter set would do most of today's pipers. My objection to this approach of adding one at a time was more practical.

And to be honest, if you want to sound like a locomotive, join a model railway society.

Mypipes · Post by **Mypipes** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 4:55 am

I have a good year of piping under my belt now playing a half set and can afford to order the regs....Paddy Keenan says get them if ya can afford them so they are there and you can start playing around with them. My Pipemaker Preshaw, says wait until youve mastered the chanter ie you'll lose focus...be overwhelmed? Since I live in NJ I was thinking that maybe a more local maker such as Galleghar NY could make the regs for a Preshaw half set....I know others have mixed sets with success. I am very pleased with Preshaw but Would it be wise to venture this way? Should I get full set ordered? and then sell half set? Should I get full set in D , I mean D to me is for playing with others and regs to me don't fit into the session mode...I could be wrong here? So maybe get a full C or Bb for solo playing...but then theres 7k vs 3k? I have a narrow bor d chanter which I could up to the full set? I have all these qyestions and you folks have all the answers?? I hope?? thanks
ps. Paddy will be at my home on Tues for a session if anyone wants some techno info, pass it on and I'll see what I can do....I know I'm bragging but heck you would to...

jqpublick · Post by **jqpublick** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 8:30 am

Hey all;

I'm still pretty much a beginner (okay, I'm a raw recruit in this world of intense musical expectations) and I'm perfectly happy with my practice set. It's enough for me to get the chanter to play properly in tune with itself while playing at any reasonable speed (I know speed isn't essential but it is fun) and the only thing I would like to add to this right now are the drones. I love the sound of a slow air above the drones, playing airs with just the chanter sometimes lacks a certain something to me. I'll be getting that in about six months time and that's going to be more than enough for me for quite some time.

I play in a traditional West African band (percussion pure and clean) and it's hard enough just to understand the subtleties of playing a djembe (there's years of learning to do just to play three notes properly).

Compare that to the complexities of the uilleann pipes and there's a whole other world of learning to do. I know for sure I'm not hearing everything that's going on with solo piping; I'd frankly be overwhelmed with a full set right now. Too much subtlety for my rock 'n roll trained ears to hear.

I think most of us in North America (and I'm probably going to be slagged for this) just aren't trained to hear the complex interplay of the pipes, the way we've been taught to learn is somehow more blunt than what the UPs require. I've been listening to lots of CDs and even the simplest tunes will amaze me on relistening.

Perhaps it's just my own shortcomings, but I've spoken with quite a few people about drumming and we pretty much universally agree that there's so much ground to cover prior to being able to effectively play that music, and this music is, in my opinion, every bit as complex, except with UPs there's only one person, and in a percussion group there's sometimes ten or more. Therefore, UPs are much much more complex to play.

I've gone on long enough. I love the music and I want to be good enough to raise a smile or a tear when I play. Years of practice from now, perhaps I'll have wished I'd started with a full set, but right now there's more than enough to learn, and hear, and fold into myself before I go on to more complex things.

Yours in verbosity,
Mark

Lorenzo · Post by **Lorenzo** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 10:25 am

Peter Laban wrote:And to be honest, if you want to sound like a locomotive, join a model railway society.

Gnaw, that might take too much training. Sounds rail fine, but I'll have to take your word for it. Give them all my best regards though.

Jo C · Post by **Jo C** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 12:53 pm

I've been playing a year on my practice set, which has served me well although not being of best quality. I think if I'd got anthing more I would be finding it difficult to cope, despite my ear being good (I'm an accomplished whistle player and classical violinist and violist). I'm now thinking about putting in an order for a half set, which would mean by the time it's ready in a few years I should be able to manage the chanter well (and might even be able to pay for it!).

So I have to say, from the point of view of the beginner piper (I o consider myself a beginner still) I agree with Uillium. Later in life you can always work on really integrating the regs into your playing, if you decide that's what you want. Nothing's impossible (or, even if it is, I'm going to have the best go at it I can).

Jo.

Antaine · Post by **Antaine** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 7:06 pm

several things from my own experience,

first let me start by saying that I started on a practice set and later upgraded to a full set.

1) it is frequently more convenient and expedient to order a full set straight off. It may be extremely unwise, especially if you have no prior uilleann experience - how do you know you will stick with it?

2) the "stage" development of learning to play reminds me of the "back to basics" plan of teaching literacy. now, I'm an English teacher, and I know that during the 1980s there was a popular movement to teach reading in stages, starting with phonics. The problem with that is that there is something inherently unnatural and abstract about that method for learning, and much more success was had with "whole language" and "invented spellings." In short, is the most effective way to learn to swim to practice each movement by itself until mastered, or to be thrown into the pool?

a music ed major friend of mine says that she refuses to teach her students songs in pieces (ie - first get all the notes right, then get all the timing right, then get it up to speed), but it must be practiced as a whole to avoid bad habits forming with the piece (ie - having to relearn bag pressure once other things are added).

Even though I didn't learn that way, I see definite merit to starting with a full set and learning the instrument as a whole. After all, do we make flautists start with piccolos until they're ready for more air pressure, or trumpeters start with bugles until they learn ambrosure?

The problem with waiting lists has little to do with people ordering full sets straight off. It exists due to 1) lack of reliable affordable student models, 2) mass production, 3) standardization (which is the reason for the other two)

but that's just my assessment

djm · Post by **djm** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 7:52 pm

Oh, boy! Can I pipe in?

I think there's benefit in going both routes. Who in NAmerica has access to full sets and half sets by different makers to know what to order and from whom? Not many, I would think. I have done the practise set and half set and now a full set. Only now can I appreciate the advice to start with a practise set, but until I had the opportunity to diddle with all that other stuff (that I'm really not ready for) did any of the sage advice mean anything to me.

One issue I didn't see mentioned is that when a pipe maker builds a full set, he balances all the parts to each other. Makers don't stand still, so the design of the chanter or drones they build today may not match what they are doing two or three years down the road. Quite often you will have to send them your whole set so they can add on successfully to what ever you have today.

Personally, I am all for the whole set route if you can afford it. Even if I'm not ready for regs for another few years, I'll have had that much more time to fool around with them.

djm

srfmowman · Post by **srfmowman** » Sun Jun 01, 2003 9:58 pm

I can see many positive outcomes from long waiting lists.
1. Resale prices stay up (more money to upgrade with)
2. UP makers gain stability from a known amount of work ahead
3. UP makers may take on apprentices (eventually increasing the number of makers)
4. UP makers may be motivated to make their process more efficient
5. More sets will become available on resale market (no wait time)
6. More pipers
7. More teachers (in Utah)
8. More tutor resources

I have a practice set. If I could have swung a full set to begin with, I would have. The regs and drones would probably be off for most of the first two years, but at least I would be comfortable with the positioning of the whole rig. I think anyone who takes on a bizaare instrument like the UP's is probably a obsessive compulsive masochist in the first place. The wait times and the whole reed thing is ample proof. Still practicing, whack me in the head with a hammer, it doesn't get any better than this.