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 Post subject: Re: Paddy Moloney rap
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:15 am 
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Steampacket wrote:
I'm with oleorezinator regarding this sampling rubbish.

"I like that it speaks to the complicated interplay of African American and irish traditions in the US., which is less well known than it should be. Thousands of African American in the US trace their families back to ireland: its extremely common. Interestingly, I'm actually a back man in the state in which I reside. it's a comical and startling story of hw an immigrant from Donegal got to be a black man: http://theaporetic.com/?p=54" PB+J

What complicated interplay between African American and Irish traditions?

The link you gave PB+J was interesting in that it revealed an evil racism resident in the U.S. towards people of African descent that rivalled that of Nazi Germany's attitude towards Jewish people



How did so many African Americans get irish surnames? It's not because paddy from the bog bought slaves. Im sure Irish immigrants did end up buying slaves, but not in large numbers. By 1850 a "prime" field hand cost roughly $60,000-70,000 modern dollars. Why were african American often described as playing jigs? Why is it tap dancing, understood as an african American art form in the US, and irish dancing both involve striking the floor to produce percussive effects?

The grotesque history of segregation in the US does its work in many ways, including obscuring the things different people shared. I'm not arguing for some kind of utopian history, but I am arguing that african Americans and irish people lived in close proximity and there was a great deal of cultural exchanged, much of which enduring present day racism still serves to obscure. Note this is not a novel or extreme position among historians of the US.

So a rap that incorporates a jig seems to me to be historically reasonable. Check out the Carolina Chocolate Drops as a band that sees the intersection clearly


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 Post subject: Re: Paddy Moloney rap
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 10:47 am 
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How did so many African Americans get irish surnames? It's not because paddy from the bog bought slaves. PB+J


Sorry you're wrong PB+J. Check this out:

https://www.eurozine.com/slaves-to-a-myth/

...online registers of slaveowners with clearly Irish surnames who were compensated for the loss of their property in the Caribbean after the abolition of slavery there and in the United States after the defeat of the Confederacy. Some 539 Irish surnames were listed in an 1850 register of slaveowners in the United States. The number of slaves owned by those with such surnames rose from at least 99,129 in 1850 to 115,894 by 1860. Compensation records from 1834 for slaveowners in the West Indies identified 231 Irish surnames. These had owned 37,104 slaves. Many common Irish surnames were excluded from this analysis, including surnames that were also common in England and Scotland as well as Ulster-Scot surnames. The list of Irish slaveowners in the United States included the names of many Irish taoisigh (prime ministers) – Lynch, Haughey, FitzGerald, Ahern, Cowan and Kenny. It also included my own surname, Fanning. Some ninety-seven individual absentee slaveowners living in Ireland, who between them owned 15,869 slaves in British colonies, claimed compensation in 1834 when slavery was abolished. If you are of Catholic Irish descent the chances are your surname appears on one or other of these registers of slaveowners.


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 Post subject: Re: Paddy Moloney rap
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 12:25 pm 
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Steampacket wrote:
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How did so many African Americans get irish surnames? It's not because paddy from the bog bought slaves. PB+J


Sorry you're wrong PB+J. Check this out:

https://www.eurozine.com/slaves-to-a-myth/

...online registers of slaveowners with clearly Irish surnames who were compensated for the loss of their property in the Caribbean after the abolition of slavery there and in the United States after the defeat of the Confederacy. Some 539 Irish surnames were listed in an 1850 register of slaveowners in the United States. The number of slaves owned by those with such surnames rose from at least 99,129 in 1850 to 115,894 by 1860. Compensation records from 1834 for slaveowners in the West Indies identified 231 Irish surnames. These had owned 37,104 slaves. Many common Irish surnames were excluded from this analysis, including surnames that were also common in England and Scotland as well as Ulster-Scot surnames. The list of Irish slaveowners in the United States included the names of many Irish taoisigh (prime ministers) – Lynch, Haughey, FitzGerald, Ahern, Cowan and Kenny. It also included my own surname, Fanning. Some ninety-seven individual absentee slaveowners living in Ireland, who between them owned 15,869 slaves in British colonies, claimed compensation in 1834 when slavery was abolished. If you are of Catholic Irish descent the chances are your surname appears on one or other of these registers of slaveowners.


Right, the caribbean colonies are significantly different from the United States. you're using evidence from a different country than the one I'm talking about

"Some 539 Irish surnames were listed in an 1850 register of slaveowners " As I said, I don't disagree that some people with irish surnames owned slaves: that's clearly true


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 Post subject: Re: Paddy Moloney rap
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 2:33 pm 
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"Some 539 Irish surnames were listed in an 1850 register of slaveowners in the United States. The number of slaves owned by those with such surnames rose from at least 99,129 in 1850 to 115,894 by 1860."

I rest my case.


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 Post subject: Re: Paddy Moloney rap
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:06 pm 
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Steampacket wrote:
"Some 539 Irish surnames were listed in an 1850 register of slaveowners in the United States. The number of slaves owned by those with such surnames rose from at least 99,129 in 1850 to 115,894 by 1860."

I rest my case.



You should rest it--there were approximately four million slaves in the United states by 1860. What percentage of four million is 115,894?

I'm not sure what argument you are making. I already agreed that people with irish surnames owned slaves--that's just an obvious fact. I argued instead that there is a long history of extensive interchange between african Americans and irish americans, most of whom were not slaveowners, and most of whom arrived very poor. I'm not sure why this assertion troubles you.


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 Post subject: Re: Paddy Moloney rap
PostPosted: Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:17 pm 
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While I'm inclined to call upon everyone to just let the whole thing rest, period, I can't resist first pointing out what (to me, at least) is a very pertinent detail in this turn of the discussion: that the hefty majority of slaveowners in the American South were, to be specific, Scots Irish. It's personal to me, because in this discussion it's really not enough to just say "Irish". Ask any Irishman of any stripe; the distinction has its weight, and I think it's fair to apply it here. I certainly apply it. Of course apologists will argue that such statistics are simply an accident of overwhelming regional demographics - but the fact remains, and it's a fact driven home to me all too often for my comfort. It's nice that I'm able to console myself that my own Scots Irish forebears had no part in that deplorable practice, but in terms of the bigger picture, that's as far as it goes, isn't it. And in the smaller picture, I'm still branded even if only by association. You can trust me on that one, because I've had it pointed out to me more than once. But enough of that. Suffice it to say there should be no mystery whatsoever as to why modern African Americans should so often have surnames of Gaelic origin; those names are a direct inheritance from the very people who kept Africans as property, and thus the names continued on. That's history staring us in the face, folks. There's at least one documented case of one plantation's African slaves having no English at all: they spoke Scots Gaelic instead. But you can bet your boots the owner spoke at least enough English to do business, and very likely much more than that. On a practical level it makes sense; if you want an even tighter rein on your property, isolate them through language.

Now since this seems to be quickly slipping into an unfortunate mess, maybe we should stop to ponder the better lessons available to us in this thread, and return if we can to the musical end of things.

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 Post subject: Re: Paddy Moloney rap
PostPosted: Fri Aug 31, 2018 1:45 am 
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Now since this seems to be quickly slipping into an unfortunate mess, maybe we should stop to ponder the better lessons available to us in this thread, and return if we can to the musical end of things.


An excellent suggestion.


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 Post subject: Re: Paddy Moloney rap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:27 am 
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Nanohedron wrote:
Scots Irish. It's personal to me, because in this discussion it's really not enough to just say "Irish". Ask any Irishman of any stripe; the distinction has its weight

Interesting. I've just PM'd Nano. Sorry for any further digression, but I had never come across that term or that distinction before. It turns out - see this Wiki article - that the term is exclusively American and has nothing to do with Irish people, Scottish people or Ireland or Scotland as it is today, or has been for hundreds of years. I wondered why I hadn't come across it. I'm convinced that my Irish friends in particular would be most perplexed by it.

Now, isn't that interesting? :)

Sorry. Now back to the music. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Paddy Moloney rap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 7:53 am 
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I'm convinced that my Irish friends in particular would be most perplexed by it.


I don't know, isn't it the whole Ulster Scots thing by another name?

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 Post subject: Re: Paddy Moloney rap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 8:24 am 
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Mr.Gumby wrote:
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I'm convinced that my Irish friends in particular would be most perplexed by it.


I don't know, isn't it the whole Ulster Scots thing by another name?

Not as far as I can see. It seems to be a different thing. It's certainly a different phrase, and one which appears to have originated in the States. I think the Ulster Scots thing, whilst coming from the same basic historical origin, is something different.

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 Post subject: Re: Paddy Moloney rap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:05 am 
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First, I originally posted this as what I saw as an amusing mash-up of two differing musical styles (and besides, it's all Torrin Riáin's fault anyway), not to instigate clashes on human rights, copy-right infringement, or socio-economic interactions between Scots, Irish, and/or Americans. Apologies for opening those worm-cans.

benhall.1 wrote:
[[Re: term "Scotch-Irish"]]I'm convinced that my Irish friends in particular would be most perplexed by it.
Mr.Gumby wrote:
I don't know, isn't it the whole Ulster Scots thing by another name?
benhall.1 wrote:
...I think the Ulster Scots thing, whilst coming from the same basic historical origin, is something different.

Like another name? :poke:

Best wishes.

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: Paddy Moloney rap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:13 am 
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Steve Bliven wrote:
Like another name? :poke:



I don't really fancy spending more time or energy on this but FWIW, Wiki says:

Quote:
The Ulster Scots (Ulster-Scots: Ulstèr-Scotch), also called Ulster-Scots people (Ulstèr-Scotch fowk[2]) or, outside the British Isles, Scots-Irish (Scotch-Airisch[3]),


And you know, everything and anything here is a potential can of worms. :moreevil:

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 Post subject: Re: Paddy Moloney rap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:33 am 
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In US history (what I do for a living) "scots-irish" or "Scotch Irish" is taken to mean Protestants who left Scotland, settled in ireland, and then left Ireland for the US.

The Scotch-Irish get a bit of a black eye--there's a famous book that argues that the peaceful, tolerant quakers who initially settled philadelphia (my home town) were displaced by the more rapacious scotch-irish, who right away started abrogating treaties with the indians (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074CFBSQC/re ... TF8&btkr=1). The Scotch-Irish here in the US are said to have settled mostly in Appalachia; people who do the history of the US south are often concerned with the tension between upcountry (hillbillies, few slaves) and Low Country (rhett and scarlett, large plantations etc.). Slavery wasn't viable in the mountains, and by the time the Scotch Irish came here most of the low country land, suitable for plantation agriculture, had been claimed. Faulkner's Absalom, Absalom is wonderful on this.

Where I grew up, outside philly, you could find welsh place names like Gwynedd and North Wales and there were still numerous Quaker meeting houses and towns with Quaker names (Plymouth Meeting) and then a sharp line were the names were all german. My high school was full of Aldefers, Diffendurfers, Schwenkfelders, Shankweilers, Krups, Kriebles, Kratzes.

My favorite moment of any class is calling the roll. In the US it's like a mini review of world history. If I'm teaching the history of Vietnam I'm likely to have people whose grandparents fled in 1972 and people whose families came well after the war. At the local Vietnamese commercial center, they still fly the flag of South Vietnam.

We are going to Ireland on Tuesday--my late father in law is being inducted into the "Irish American hall of fame" at the emigration and Famine museum in New Ross. I have to "say a few words" on his behalf and am trying to cope with the way the history of immigration is both local and familial and also epic and world-historical


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 Post subject: Re: Paddy Moloney rap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 9:48 am 
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FWIW, there's a huge center in Omagh called The Ulster American Folk Park dedicated to the history and culture of this group of people:

https://www.nmni.com/our-museums/ulster ... /Home.aspx


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 Post subject: Re: Paddy Moloney rap
PostPosted: Sat Sep 01, 2018 12:19 pm 
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Since we're still on the topic, yes: Scots Irish = Ulster Scots. Sorry about any confusion; I was unaware that this might be a solely US term; here it's the commonplace name for Americans of Ulster Scots ancestry. It is incorrect (and uninformed, but that's why I'm here to help :wink: ) to suggest that one has nothing to do with the other; ethnically, they are exactly one and the same. Unfortunately in the States these terms can be freighted with political implications even beyond those one might find across the Pond (notice I said "can be", not "are"); here, "Scots Irish" tends to be favored as a relatively neutral, anthropological term, whereas "Ulster Scots" - a perfectly good term in its own right - has instead two primary applications: in reference to the ethnicity's Irish population in contrast to its US population (should the distinction need to be made, although most of the time we tend not to), or - unfortunately - where the identity has been hijacked by certain unsavory fringe groups in the name of White Supremacy, as a political stance of festering the Troubles (in America, of all places), or both, if you might want a more encompassing bigotry. Of course not all apply it to such ends - far from it - but given that more regrettable development, when speaking as an American to Americans I reflexively lean away from using "Ulster Scots" self-referentially lest I be mistaken for what I am not, and even then it doesn't always succeed; and more generally, "Scots Irish" is simply just a timeworn habit of my language as well. Fat lot of good all that did me on an international forum, eh? :)

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