Hand Posture & Arthritis

[Tou-Che]

So, I was watching one of those flashback youtube clips of a well known and very talented piper playing away when they were in their teens. I noticed one of the comments suggested the pipers grip/posture is a sure path to developing arthritis.

I notice my top hand/arm has a bit of a curve to it at the wrist when playing much like resting your palms on the desk while typing (carpel tunnel). I started paying more attention to players top hand wrist and for ex. Davy Spillane top of hand is perfectly straight/in-line with his forearm. I also noticed a lot of players have their wrist bent like mine but....... that comment really got me thinking and maybe for a good reason!

My question is what is considered to be the proper posture? Are there any tricks to keeping your wrist straight maybe rotate the chanter to the 2 o'clock position.....

[PJ]

Make sure the neck of the bag is the correct length.

[tommykleen]

I believe much depends on 1) the length of the bag neck and 2) where you hold the bag. For me, I have a quite a long neck, and my bag is low on my hip (not up under my arm). My wrist and forearm are straight or maybe make a gentle curve...toward my body. So far, no hand/wrist issues (touch wood).

[Loren]

So, I was watching one of those flashback youtube clips of a well known and very talented piper playing away when they were in their teens. I noticed one of the comments suggested the pipers grip/posture is a sure path to developing arthritis.

Historically, most doctors don’t even properly diagnose arthritis, let alone some random person on the internet commenting on a YouTube video.

[Peter Duggan]

sure path to developing arthritis.

Not convinced there's any such thing! When I first asked my very good (sports specialist) doctor for confirmation that I had arthritic fingers, he pointed me at a study of hand injuries in climbers (yes, I climb as well as play music), told me I didn't climb hard enough or often enough to have done this to myself, so there was an element of bad luck in that it was going to happen anyway.

http://www.petestack.com/blog/yes-i-hav ... ngers.html

some random person on the internet commenting on a YouTube video.

Quite!

[Tou-Che]

Does a straight wrist allow the fingers to flow better?

[flutefry]

While standing, let your arms and hands fall naturally to your sides. Look at the position of your hand vs your wrist, and the position of your fingers. Straight hand/wrist, partly curved fingers. That's your natural, relaxed wrist/hand/finger position, and is what you are aiming for when playing pipes (or anything involving your fingers).

Another little demonstration. Hold your hand and wrist in line, and look at the back of your hand. You will see the tendons on the back of your hand Wiggle your fingers and the tendons will move. Pay attention to tension in the hand. Then bend your hand back a bit. You will see the tendons stand out more, and when you wiggle your fingers, you will notice tightness in your hand and in your wrist.

Note that I am making a point about relaxation, not about arthritis! Arthritis is a joint problem, and the link between hand position and playing instruments, or any repetitive finger action is not clear, even for movements under load.

Hugh

[Tou-Che]

I'm convinced!

[BzzzzT]

I would consult a rheumatologist if you are serious. I do believe piping can have some negative affects on your joints. After playing the pipes for a while I am against using tough/stiff reeds. Rheumatic diseases are either auto-immune or caused from wear.

[flutefry]

Sorry to add complexity when simplicity is sought, but there are 2 kinds of arthritis: rheumatoid which is brought about by the immune system acting abnormally, and osteoarthritis which arises from breakdown of smooth cartilage around the joint. The problem is in trying to decide what causes the immune system to act abnormally, or the cartilage to break down, and this remains unclear.

Rheumatoid arthritis normally affect the hands and wrists, but its cause is unknown. Common sense says that there must be some reason that these joints are particularly sensitive, but why some people get rheumatoid arthritis and others do not is not clear. There is a genetic component, but no one knows the ratio of genetic to environmental contributions to the disease. Only about 1% of the population gets this disease.

Osteoarthritis tends to affect weight bearing joints, and overweight people are more likely to get osteoarthritis, which suggests that loading on the joint matters. Injuries affect the likelihood of getting osteoarthritis, but cracking your knuckles doesn't. Doing repetitive jobs does increase the risk of osteoarthritis. Nevertheless, only 20% of Americans over 65 get osteoarthritis, so there isn't a clear "do this and you get osteoarthritis" link.

To me it makes sense to avoid repetitive strain in general, and your playing will improve if you are relaxed while playing, but it's not because you will necessarily get arthritis if you do this or don't do that.

[awildman]

Sorry to add complexity when simplicity is sought, but there are 2 kinds of arthritis: rheumatoid which is brought about by the immune system acting abnormally, and osteoarthritis which arises from breakdown of smooth cartilage around the joint.

I agree with most of your post, but this part is misleading. There are a lot more than 2 types of arthritis. In the buggered-up immune system category, there are psoriatic, spondylo(sp?), and lupus, to name 3. I'm sure there are a few more that I have never heard of as well. In addition, there are other inflammatory conditions like Chrohn's, most of which have similar symptoms to all the others I mentioned.

[Tunborough]

Sorry to add complexity when simplicity is sought, but there are 2 kinds of arthritis: rheumatoid which is brought about by the immune system acting abnormally, and osteoarthritis which arises from breakdown of smooth cartilage around the joint.

I agree with most of your post, but this part is misleading. There are a lot more than 2 types of arthritis. In the buggered-up immune system category, there are psoriatic, spondylo(sp?), and lupus, to name 3. I'm sure there are a few more that I have never heard of as well. In addition, there are other inflammatory conditions like Chrohn's, most of which have similar symptoms to all the others I mentioned.

Those are rheumatological conditions, but not arthritis. Arthritis applies only to joint issues.

[Loren]

sure path to developing arthritis.

Not convinced there's any such thing! When I first asked my very good (sports specialist) doctor for confirmation that I had arthritic fingers, he pointed me at a study of hand injuries in climbers (yes, I climb as well as play music), told me I didn't climb hard enough or often enough to have done this to myself, so there was an element of bad luck in that it was going to happen anyway.

http://www.petestack.com/blog/yes-i-hav ... ngers.html

some random person on the internet commenting on a YouTube video.

Quite!

Yeah, I started rock climbing in the 70’s, managed a climbing gym in the 90’s, still climb now, and while I’ve seen lots of climbers with finger/hand injuries, in all those years I’ve never met a climber who had legitimately diagnosed hand or finger arthritis. General Practioner MD’s often throw the term at patients when they have joint pain, but the only true diagnostic tool for the condition is eyes on via the scope opening you up. Mostly what climbers get are soft tissue injuries, and if you think about it, most rock climbing does not involve the sort of MOI (Mechanism Of Injury) that’s required to produce osteoarthritis: Boney and or cartilaginous surfaces slamming together, or constantly rubbing together under (relatively) high pressure. With climbing, mostly the stresses are pulling your hand, finger, arm and shoulder joints apart, not pushing them together. The main exception here would be hand/fist jamming in crack climbing.

Similarly, there’s no real MOI for osteoarthritis in playing the pipes whistling or flute, as there are not sufficient forces generated in playing that will cause the boney surfaces in your finger and wrist joints wear.

Now soft tissue issues are another matter entirely with regards to RSI, as others have mentioned, and that’s where the real potential problems lie for the player of any instrument. So yes, it pays to learn enough about good biomechanics for your instruments(s) of choice, or likely suffer the consequences eventually. But the consequences are highly unlikely to be arthritis.

[awildman]

Sorry to add complexity when simplicity is sought, but there are 2 kinds of arthritis: rheumatoid which is brought about by the immune system acting abnormally, and osteoarthritis which arises from breakdown of smooth cartilage around the joint.

I agree with most of your post, but this part is misleading. There are a lot more than 2 types of arthritis. In the buggered-up immune system category, there are psoriatic, spondylo(sp?), and lupus, to name 3. I'm sure there are a few more that I have never heard of as well. In addition, there are other inflammatory conditions like Chrohn's, most of which have similar symptoms to all the others I mentioned.

Those are rheumatological conditions, but not arthritis. Arthritis applies only to joint issues.

Are you sure about that? Psoriatic arthritis isn't arthritis? None of the conditions I mentioned affect joints? Rheumatoid arthritis affects only the joints?

[Tunborough]

Are you sure about that? Psoriatic arthritis isn't arthritis? None of the conditions I mentioned affect joints? Rheumatoid arthritis affects only the joints?

I should have said not primarily arthritis. Lupus, in particular, is a systemic rheumatological condition, not just, or always, a condition of the joints. flutefry's original point was to distinguish the two most common kinds of arthritis as a primary condition, one of which might be related to over-use or improper use, and the other of which isn't.