Back to basics: metronome

A forum about Uilleann (Irish) pipes and the surly people who play them.
User avatar
PJ
Posts: 5884
Joined: Tue Jan 18, 2005 12:23 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: ......................................................................................................
Location: Baychimo

Back to basics: metronome

Post by PJ »

I usually practice and play solo. I used to practice 4 or 5 times a week but work commitments have prevented me from practicing that much in the past year or so. These days, I'm back to basics, such as practicing with a metronome, something I haven't done in years.

I've noticed that I tend to play triplets and crans too quickly, and play long rolls too slowly. This is not something I would have spotted without the metronome.

I've also noticed that I play much faster than I used to. In the past, I would play certain jigs at 92 bmp, whereas these days I feel more comfortable playing the same jigs at 104 bmp.
PJ
User avatar
dyersituations
Posts: 693
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:19 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Back to basics: metronome

Post by dyersituations »

I know there's sometimes controversy around using a metronome for practicing Irish music, but I have also found it helpful for "checking in" with how my general tempo is doing. For the first couple years with the pipes I had the hardest time keeping the tempo consistent. Someone mentioned to me it might have to do with bellows movement throwing off general timing. Whatever it was, I sometimes will just turn on a metronome and play tunes at different speeds for 30 mins or so. I've found that it has helped me greatly.
Life is good.
JordanMcConnell
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 12:07 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Primarily a guitar player and also play pipes.
I have a Joe Kennedy full set in D, with a B set on the way.
Location: winnipeg, Canada
Contact:

Re: Back to basics: metronome

Post by JordanMcConnell »

I would be curious to hear an argument against using a metronome to practise...
User avatar
walrii
Posts: 1174
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:21 pm
antispam: No
Location: Burkburnett, TX

Re: Back to basics: metronome

Post by walrii »

JordanMcConnell wrote:I would be curious to hear an argument against using a metronome to practise...
Real Irish musicians don't do that.

You shouldn't need one.

They distract you from the music.

I've never seen the need for one.

They make your playing mechanical.


There are some others. None make any more sense that the ones I listed above.

IMHO.
The Walrus

What would a wild walrus whistle if a walrus could whistle wild?

The second mouse may get the cheese but the presentation leaves a lot to be desired.
User avatar
benhall.1
Moderator
Posts: 14797
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:21 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm a fiddler and, latterly, a fluter. I love the flute. I wish I'd always played it. I love the whistle as well. I'm blessed in having really lovely instruments for all of my musical interests.
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe

Re: Back to basics: metronome

Post by benhall.1 »

walrii wrote:
JordanMcConnell wrote:I would be curious to hear an argument against using a metronome to practise...
Real Irish musicians don't do that.

You shouldn't need one.

They distract you from the music.

I've never seen the need for one.

They make your playing mechanical.


There are some others. None make any more sense that the ones I listed above.

IMHO.
I think this is yet another of those cases where people nowadays can't think in nuanced ways. I don't mean you, walrii, but some of those 'reasons' you give illustrate what I'm talking about, and it's just as bad when people say things that imply putting absolute faith in metronomes for sorting out rhythm issues. A lot of people these days can't see things as "potentially good, providing [... x, y, z]"; instead they have to classify things as "good" or "bad".

In my opinion, metronomes have a useful function when used thoughtfully, but can be counter-productive when used without sufficient thought. I strongly believe that developing a good, inner rhythm and learning to listen to oneself through slow practice is the best way to develop good rhythm. However, in passages where ones rhythm is falling apart, it can be illuminating to use a metronome to flag up where one is speeding up or slowing down. Then I think you should go back to the slow practice, listening intently, and maybe try it with the metronome again and note any improvement.

The above is my argument for why a metronome can be useful. On the other hand, I have found over many years that there is a species of person who swears that their rhythm is perfect because they "always practice with a metronome" or some such comment. I have found that such people invariably have dreadful rhythm. I think this is because they stop thinking and, instead, let the metronome do their thinking for them. What seems to happen is that, within beats there is a constant sense of 'catching up' with the beat, with precious little in the way of good rhythm for the notes in between. It's a strange thing, but I think you can hear when people have relied on metronomes too much and haven't developed a good inner ear for what they're playing.
User avatar
walrii
Posts: 1174
Joined: Wed Jan 05, 2005 5:21 pm
antispam: No
Location: Burkburnett, TX

Re: Back to basics: metronome

Post by walrii »

Well said, Ben. The metronome is a tool to aid learning. One could learn to play a whistle (or any instrument) with no tools at all other than the whistle itself but that would be reinventing the music starting about a million years ago. Recordings, YouTube videos, live music, sessions, formal instruction, informal instruction, online instruction, C&F posts, sheet music, abc's, tabs, metronomes and others are all tools to aid learning. Some tools work better in some situations than others but deliberately ignoring an available tool is just as wasteful as persevering with a tool that has proved unsuitable to the situation at hand.

My earlier post was deliberately black-and-white to point out the flimsy reasons sometimes given for not using a metronome. A similar list of flimsy reasons could be made for using one as a silver bullet to solve all one's musical problems.
The Walrus

What would a wild walrus whistle if a walrus could whistle wild?

The second mouse may get the cheese but the presentation leaves a lot to be desired.
User avatar
benhall.1
Moderator
Posts: 14797
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:21 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm a fiddler and, latterly, a fluter. I love the flute. I wish I'd always played it. I love the whistle as well. I'm blessed in having really lovely instruments for all of my musical interests.
Location: Unimportant island off the great mainland of Europe

Re: Back to basics: metronome

Post by benhall.1 »

walrii wrote:My earlier post was deliberately black-and-white to point out the flimsy reasons sometimes given for not using a metronome. A similar list of flimsy reasons could be made for using one as a silver bullet to solve all one's musical problems.
Quite right. I think we agree. Again. :)
User avatar
dyersituations
Posts: 693
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:19 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Back to basics: metronome

Post by dyersituations »

I agree with the above comments as well. The "controversy" I was referring to was outlined well by walrii. I was originally trained as a kid on the clarinet and sax, and in that world the metronome was often a required teaching device. So for me it was natural to use in it the trad world, smoothing out places I stumble, like Ben mentioned.
Life is good.
Tom_S
Posts: 94
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 11:31 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Adelaide, Australia

Re: Back to basics: metronome

Post by Tom_S »

I found my phone's volume wasn't loud enough to run a metronome app effectively unless I listened through headphones, which then blocks out a bit of your actual playing. Are people using those old style tock-tock wooden metronomes? Or what devices have people found effective?
User avatar
dyersituations
Posts: 693
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:19 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Back to basics: metronome

Post by dyersituations »

For the metronome on my phone, the volume is just loud enough. But sometimes when learning a tune or song by ear it isn't quite loud enough to pick up the nuances. In those cases I use a Bluetooth speaker. I've heard of people using the old school metronomes because they like seeing the movement.
Life is good.
User avatar
elbowmusic
Posts: 266
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:27 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I'm back in the uilleann piping world after a ten year hiatus. Uilleann piping chops, here I come!

I'm a smallpipe and Border pipe maker and we'll just see where that leads to.
Location: Howl's Unmoving Castle
Contact:

Re: Back to basics: metronome

Post by elbowmusic »

Plug this into your phone (or other metronome):

Image

https://www.amazon.com/Peterson-BPS1-Bo ... +metronome
-Nate Banton-
Smallpipes and Border Pipes http://www.natebanton.com
User avatar
rorybbellows
Posts: 3191
Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2003 7:50 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: the cutting edge

Re: Back to basics: metronome

Post by rorybbellows »

No,no,no to metromone . Use your internal metronome , we all have one, learn to use it. Your music will be more human, natural and appealing and you will be a better piper for it.

RORY
I'm Spartacus .
Tunborough
Posts: 1419
Joined: Sun Dec 05, 2010 2:59 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: Southwestern Ontario

Re: Back to basics: metronome

Post by Tunborough »

rorybbellows wrote:No,no,no to metromone . Use your internal metronome , we all have one, learn to use it. Your music will be more human, natural and appealing and you will be a better piper for it.
And how do you learn to use it? Why, by training it with an external metronome, of course.
User avatar
Mr.Gumby
Posts: 6606
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 11:31 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: the Back of Beyond

Re: Back to basics: metronome

Post by Mr.Gumby »

Why, by training it with an external metronome, of course.
Not necessarily. Playing with people who have things right and/or playing for dancers are both well established means of training rhythms in Irish music, external, but no metronome. Knowing how to dance a set is another means of becoming familiar with the rhythms of Irish music. Developing your inner ear to become attuned to beat, pulse and internal rhythms of a tune does not depend on mechanical devices. They can be a help but are by no means a necessity.

And yes, you do get people who have their beats right but their internal rhythms all garbled up, they are just about the worst to play with as, generally, they cannot understand what they are doing wrong. People who know how to dance a set well on the other hand, they usually have a well developed sense of rhythm when they take up an instrument.
My brain hurts

Image
User avatar
dyersituations
Posts: 693
Joined: Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:19 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: Portland, OR

Re: Back to basics: metronome

Post by dyersituations »

Mr.Gumby wrote:Not necessarily. Playing with people who have things right and/or playing for dancers are both well established means of training rhythms in Irish music, external, but no metronome. Knowing how to dance a set is another means of becoming familiar with the rhythms of Irish music. Developing your inner ear to become attuned to beat, pulse and internal rhythms of a tune does not depend on mechanical devices. They can be a help but are by no means a necessity.
Playing with others to develop good rhythms is definitely ideal. For me the metronome is just a way to touch base. My internal rhythms are usually pretty solid, there's just something about the pipes where I sometimes speed up a phrase or two. But both playing with others and checking in with a metronome has helped greatly and made me especially aware of where I need to slow down.
Life is good.
Post Reply