Tuning Eb on JI chanters

[gentlemanpiper]

I thought that instruments like the pipes were tuned to true pitch, ie. without the need to compromise as in the case of, say, a piano which can be played in all keys. Also, I thought that pipers only check the tuning for a with a tuner relying on ear to check if the rest of the scale is in tune as other notes (except d) are never going to match a tuner. Is this correct? ie. that an instrument that is not truly chromatic can be more in tune than one where chromatic notes are not just occasional incidentals like g sharp or b flat?

[oleorezinator]

I heard Joe and Antoinette McKenna when they
played in Boston in 1981. When they played
The Moving Cloud, Joe played DGBG EbGBG
in the A part of the tune. I remember a few
people in the audience making faces hearing
the Eb in the phrase instead of an E.
I wonder how they'd react if it was an accordion
player doing that?
Anyway, Sean O'Riada had something to say on
the use of accidentals.....and accordions.
Scroll to 12:20.
http://www.rte.ie/radio/utils/radioplay ... %2D2012%5F

[uillmann]

I thought that instruments like the pipes were tuned to true pitch, ie. without the need to compromise as in the case of, say, a piano which can be played in all keys. Also, I thought that pipers only check the tuning for a with a tuner relying on ear to check if the rest of the scale is in tune as other notes (except d) are never going to match a tuner. Is this correct? ie. that an instrument that is not truly chromatic can be more in tune than one where chromatic notes are not just occasional incidentals like g sharp or b flat?

This is correct.

[Tunborough]

I thought that instruments like the pipes were tuned to true pitch

I'm not comfortable with the term "true pitch". You are correct that a mostly diatonic instrument like the pipes can be tuned so the notes sound better with each other and with the drones than they would in the Equal Temperament tuning of an electronic tuner. However, you still have to compromise which notes sound good with which other notes, so it's hard to argue there is one true pitch to rule them all.

Another way of expressing my original question: what other note(s) would you tune Eb to sound good with?

[Tunborough]

There are a few instances I can think of where the note in he second octave has a use as an e flat of sorts, they're not many though (in fact I just stumbled into one in a hornpipe I was playing, with the caveat it's not completely to my liking).

As for the lower octave, Tommy Reck's use GEE_E ~E3F GE~E2BcBA GE ~E2 etc in the Fermoy Lasses just came to mind.

Is Ghost D strictly a second-octave thing, or is it used in the first octave, too.

Thanks everyone for all the information, BTW. There's a lot more to my question than I first thought.

[uillmann]

If you want your pipes to be in reasonably good tune, try this. Take a new G or D Hohner Marine Band or Special 20 harmonica, stick it in your mouth, breathe slowly in and out continuously while playing a few D licks and a few G licks, observe were you are sharp or flat, and tune from there. It ain't rocket science. I prefer to tune my pipes to a G mouth harp. Naturally, this key is where the regulators shine, as there is a full complement of a three chord progression available, which is obviously not available to the regulators in the key of D. The D note, however, is fully represented in the G mouth organ, and you will know immediately if your chanter's D or d is out of tune. Keeping everything in concordance is handy because then you know right away what reed or note is a wee bit off. Of course, this exercise can take an afternoon, or a lifetime.

[myles]

Is Ghost D strictly a second-octave thing, or is it used in the first octave, too.

At the bottom of the instrument you've already got the hard D (in tune, hopefully) plus the 'soft' D (a bit out).

There is a note produced in the low octave with one finger raised but I've not personally heard it referred to as 'ghost D'. Others might do differently? This can be used to give an impression of Eb if you haven't a key - as I said I tend to think of it as a special effect rather than a workable Eb, though I've heard it called 'Eb'.

Then you've also got E, hard E, an off the knee E (also a bit out). Plus any amount of shaded stuff. Almost too much choice, unless you're Tommy Reck.

[myles]

Take a new G or D Hohner Marine Band or Special 20 harmonica, stick it in your mouth, breathe slowly in and out continuously while playing a few D licks and a few G licks, observe

Actually that's a great idea - I'll try that in future.

As an added bonus you can do Bob Dylan impersonations while playing

[gentlemanpiper]

If you listen to paddy Keenan playing the humours of bally onnell I think he plays a triple consisting of e, ghost d, then bottom d in the second part.

[Christian Tietje]

Hi Tunborough,
to come back to the original question - as far as my expierence is, anybody else can have other - the chanter is only fine as close as possible to just intonation. Anything else is away from the drone tuned sound as bagpipes should have.

Tune your lower octave A or G with a tuner and the rest of the scale to the tenor drone (prob. wax for F and B). This will result a sweet and bright sound within the pipes. You can check backwards, not tune to a good tuner (with scales adjustable to just intonation to a scale on basis of G or D).

The semitones in between should be tuned (pro. wax) to work well in the relevant keys, in concert pitch D: G and D. That means the Eb should work as a leading note in E-minor upwards to E, the G# in A-minor to A, the B for G-minor.

The Eb will sometimes be used as the ghost D, i.e. in Jenny's Welcome. To be prepared for those purposes you can generally flatten the Eb with some red wax on the upper edge of the hole, lower as D#, close to the D. If the D# is required in E-minor leading to E in a kind of B7-chord give more pressure.

Theoretically tune semitones in the average centre between the two neighbours, Eb between D and E, F between E and F# ...

It is not useful to tune the semitones to any equal tunig because most of tunes in foreign scales will sound as cat yelp. This relates to the fact, that i.e. the B in G-major has to be about 16 Cents flat. The B therefore cannot be the basis for playing in B-flat.

Scale