In peoples opinions, what are the tonal differences between eboney and blackwood?
I've heard that eboney produces more of a "softer" tone.
What do other people think?
Samuel
eboney vs blackwood (tonal difference?)
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Lorenzo
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I've heard from at least one pipe maker that African blackwood contains more oils than ebony, so ebony is better suited for the pipes, and blackwood for flutes where moisture wants to saturate the wood. Marc van Daal used the expression "why not use the best?" referring to ebony.
Fill your eyes with wood!
http://www.younghippie.com/Imported%20Wood.htm
Fill your eyes with wood!
http://www.younghippie.com/Imported%20Wood.htm
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Tony
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- Tell us something.: I used to play pipes about 20 years ago and suddenly abducted by aliens.
Not sure why... but it's 2022 and I'm mysteriously baack... - Location: Surlyville
Good point Brian. A reed and setup can have a greater effect of the sound.
If I had two chanters in different woods from the same maker (same bore) I would have a better comparison.
sammyd asked for an opinion so... I think blackwood gives a stronger sound (as Davy puts it: strident) and ebony more harmonic or richer sounding.
If I had two chanters in different woods from the same maker (same bore) I would have a better comparison.
sammyd asked for an opinion so... I think blackwood gives a stronger sound (as Davy puts it: strident) and ebony more harmonic or richer sounding.
Hello, excuse my english.
I'm making bagpipes for more then 10 years, this is my "explanation" why different kinds of woods sound sometimes different.
At first, this has been said before, it is importand that you could only compare two chanter if the bore, the tonhole lattice and the reed is the same.
I have made two uilleannpipes chanter (concert pitch), one in blackwood (Grenadill), the other in plum (Zwetschge). The bore, the toneholes etc. of both chanter are same as possible.
I would say that the blackwood-chanter sound "brilliant" with a lot of harmonics, the plum-chanter sound "mouldy, damm".
I played the softD on both chanter with the same reed and make a FTT-analysis of the two sound. This shows the harmonics of the sound and how strong these harmonics are.
red=blackwood-chanter
black=plumwood-chanter
You could see that the harmonics No. 4,6,7 of the blackwood-chanter are very strong, the same harmonics of the plumwood-chanter are weak.
A sound with weak/less harmonics sound "mouldy, damm".
How I explain this:
If you play a woodwind the air column inside the bore "vibrates", this "makes the wood vibrating", I mean the wood of the chanter vibrate because of the phenomeon of "resonance".
This is no "total resonance", this means a lot of energy is needed for this.
High harmonics are very "full of energy", the most energy for the "resonance" is taken from the higher harmonics, this weakens the higher harmonics, so the sound is "damm".
The density of blackwood is 1,2gr/mm^3, the density of plum-wood is only 0,75gr/mm^3.
"soft wood" like plum needs more energy for the "resonance", this is why "soft" wood have weaker harmonics than "hard" wood.
For german speaking peopel, I have writen a "artikel" about the influence of the wood on the tonal quality, you could read the artikel here http://www.cornemuse.de/ unter Material|Holz|Einfluß des Holzes auf Klang
I think there is a differnt between ebony and blackwood, but there is the same differnt between BLACKWOOD and BVLACKWOOD.
The density of two woods must be very differnt before you hear a differnt in sound.
Excuse my english, but I visit this forum 3-4 times the week for about 1/2 year and have get a lot of good informations and help only reading the threads, but because of my bad english I usaly never write. I hope this replay is usefull to you.
markus
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: magaeb on 2003-03-01 12:22 ]</font>
I'm making bagpipes for more then 10 years, this is my "explanation" why different kinds of woods sound sometimes different.
At first, this has been said before, it is importand that you could only compare two chanter if the bore, the tonhole lattice and the reed is the same.
I have made two uilleannpipes chanter (concert pitch), one in blackwood (Grenadill), the other in plum (Zwetschge). The bore, the toneholes etc. of both chanter are same as possible.
I would say that the blackwood-chanter sound "brilliant" with a lot of harmonics, the plum-chanter sound "mouldy, damm".
I played the softD on both chanter with the same reed and make a FTT-analysis of the two sound. This shows the harmonics of the sound and how strong these harmonics are.
red=blackwood-chanter
black=plumwood-chanter
You could see that the harmonics No. 4,6,7 of the blackwood-chanter are very strong, the same harmonics of the plumwood-chanter are weak.
A sound with weak/less harmonics sound "mouldy, damm".
How I explain this:
If you play a woodwind the air column inside the bore "vibrates", this "makes the wood vibrating", I mean the wood of the chanter vibrate because of the phenomeon of "resonance".
This is no "total resonance", this means a lot of energy is needed for this.
High harmonics are very "full of energy", the most energy for the "resonance" is taken from the higher harmonics, this weakens the higher harmonics, so the sound is "damm".
The density of blackwood is 1,2gr/mm^3, the density of plum-wood is only 0,75gr/mm^3.
"soft wood" like plum needs more energy for the "resonance", this is why "soft" wood have weaker harmonics than "hard" wood.
For german speaking peopel, I have writen a "artikel" about the influence of the wood on the tonal quality, you could read the artikel here http://www.cornemuse.de/ unter Material|Holz|Einfluß des Holzes auf Klang
I think there is a differnt between ebony and blackwood, but there is the same differnt between BLACKWOOD and BVLACKWOOD.
The density of two woods must be very differnt before you hear a differnt in sound.
Excuse my english, but I visit this forum 3-4 times the week for about 1/2 year and have get a lot of good informations and help only reading the threads, but because of my bad english I usaly never write. I hope this replay is usefull to you.
markus
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: magaeb on 2003-03-01 12:22 ]</font>
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Rick
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It seems there are a LOT of opinions on which wood is best for the pipes.On 2003-03-01 09:22, Lorenzo wrote:
Marc van Daal used the expression "why not use the best?" referring to ebony.
Marc thinks that's ebony (dalbergia melanoxylon) but that's purely HIS opinion after using quite some sorts of wood to make chanters of.
"the best" refers to the best quality ebony available to him at any given time.
Hello,
it is very kind of you to tell me you understand my english.
I started in school with russian and latein, only a few years english. my problem is that I could not asses if I say what I mean. But in future I will not longer "lurking".
One point I forget :
Density of ebony 0,95-1,12gr/mm^3
Density of blackwood 1,12-1,3gr/mm^3
=> more or less the same
But the surface of a blackwood-bore is IMHO smoother than the bore of a ebony-chanter.
A smoother surface makes more harmonics, the phenomeon behind this is called in physics the "Hagen-Poiseuille equation".
But much more importand is the reed, as said before.
I think the influence of tonal quality is :
- 5% kind of wood (density)
- 20% bore and toneholes
- 75% reed
If Marc said that he prefer ebony because he think it is the best wood, than is this for pipes made by Marc the truth (have played pipes made by Marc, he is a very good pipemaker).
@anima
I'm making at the moment a HP with the theme : Bagpipemaking ("Dudelsack DIY" = "Bagpipes DIY")
but only in german, sorry.
Over the years I have get so much help and guidance in bagpipesmaking from other people and I developed a lot of "own stuff" that I think it is good to tell another people who wanted to build pipes how I do it. Not why I think I know how to build a bagpipe, I think it is important to change all things together.
I have no camera, only a scanner and a cheap webcam, so it is difficult to make good picture of my pipes. But it is not my intension to make a webpage with picture of my work, there are enough pages with pics of pipes, even in german.
But you could find some pictures of some "speziall things" I have made over the years, maybe this is more intersting. On
http://www.cornemuse.de/
go to "Lösungen" (solutions), there is for example a "new" idea for keys on the UP or a extra e-Drones for the UP. Click on links with the word "uilleannpipes" under "Lösungen".
Under "Pläne" (blueprints, plans) you find plans of instruments I developed, at the moment I make the plan for "my" Uilleannpipes with d and e-drones.
It have taken more than two years before I have developed a working uilleannpipes with is not a copy of a other UP. Im really proud of this instrument.
Under "Herstellung"(making) => Räumer (reamer) you could see how I make the reamer with a easy homebild "machine". The most problem for beginners making pipes is how to make the reamer as you know.
If you/somebody need a short english summenary/explanation for something drop me a line.
markus
it is very kind of you to tell me you understand my english.
I started in school with russian and latein, only a few years english. my problem is that I could not asses if I say what I mean. But in future I will not longer "lurking".
One point I forget :
Density of ebony 0,95-1,12gr/mm^3
Density of blackwood 1,12-1,3gr/mm^3
=> more or less the same
But the surface of a blackwood-bore is IMHO smoother than the bore of a ebony-chanter.
A smoother surface makes more harmonics, the phenomeon behind this is called in physics the "Hagen-Poiseuille equation".
But much more importand is the reed, as said before.
I think the influence of tonal quality is :
- 5% kind of wood (density)
- 20% bore and toneholes
- 75% reed
If Marc said that he prefer ebony because he think it is the best wood, than is this for pipes made by Marc the truth (have played pipes made by Marc, he is a very good pipemaker).
@anima
I'm making at the moment a HP with the theme : Bagpipemaking ("Dudelsack DIY" = "Bagpipes DIY")
but only in german, sorry.
Over the years I have get so much help and guidance in bagpipesmaking from other people and I developed a lot of "own stuff" that I think it is good to tell another people who wanted to build pipes how I do it. Not why I think I know how to build a bagpipe, I think it is important to change all things together.
I have no camera, only a scanner and a cheap webcam, so it is difficult to make good picture of my pipes. But it is not my intension to make a webpage with picture of my work, there are enough pages with pics of pipes, even in german.
But you could find some pictures of some "speziall things" I have made over the years, maybe this is more intersting. On
http://www.cornemuse.de/
go to "Lösungen" (solutions), there is for example a "new" idea for keys on the UP or a extra e-Drones for the UP. Click on links with the word "uilleannpipes" under "Lösungen".
Under "Pläne" (blueprints, plans) you find plans of instruments I developed, at the moment I make the plan for "my" Uilleannpipes with d and e-drones.
It have taken more than two years before I have developed a working uilleannpipes with is not a copy of a other UP. Im really proud of this instrument.
Under "Herstellung"(making) => Räumer (reamer) you could see how I make the reamer with a easy homebild "machine". The most problem for beginners making pipes is how to make the reamer as you know.
If you/somebody need a short english summenary/explanation for something drop me a line.
markus
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Lorenzo
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These are the first close-up pictures I've seen of any handmade reamers. Thanks for the links Markus. Hope you don't mind if I post them over here.
Pictures found at http://www.cornemuse.de/ "Herstellung-Räumen"
Rough translation beside certain pics:
"Rund"-Räumer the name "round Räumer" is my characteristic label. For the manufacture of a "Rund"-Räumers, a very good metal lathe with Fräsaggregat(?) is required. A HSS rod is turned out of the necessary metal, gives subsequently a cutting edge angearbeitet(?) for this with different possibilities, only schematically represented."
"The necessary reamers are not available in the tool trade, one will have to make'em themselves."
"The conical reamer for a chanter is put together sometimes out of different metal, especially in Uilleann Pipes. It's too costly however to be mass-produced, to make reamers out of several different metals depending on the type of reamer needed."
Pictures found at http://www.cornemuse.de/ "Herstellung-Räumen"
Rough translation beside certain pics:
"Rund"-Räumer the name "round Räumer" is my characteristic label. For the manufacture of a "Rund"-Räumers, a very good metal lathe with Fräsaggregat(?) is required. A HSS rod is turned out of the necessary metal, gives subsequently a cutting edge angearbeitet(?) for this with different possibilities, only schematically represented."
"The necessary reamers are not available in the tool trade, one will have to make'em themselves."
"The conical reamer for a chanter is put together sometimes out of different metal, especially in Uilleann Pipes. It's too costly however to be mass-produced, to make reamers out of several different metals depending on the type of reamer needed."
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bagpipeworks
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- Contact:
Tonal colourings of Ebony and Blackwood.
As many of you are aware there is a marked difference between Ebony and Blackwood and Blackwood mentioned here.
The higher resin content of Blackwood and similar timbers stops and reflects away most of the engergies produced by the standing wave form, producing a sharper and louder sound from each tone hole lattice and the bell note of the instrument.
Magaeb mentioned there is also a difference between Blackwood and Blackwood, this is down to a difference between good densce instrument grade and poorer grades of the same timber, the higher the quality the denscer the timber etc.
Most timbers loose most of their water content in the first year of billetting it,
Blackwood and Lignum are the most difficult
to season and work with because of their reluctance to part with liquids and why I recommend at least six months to a year between each stage of manufacture.
This is hard because many folks don't want to wait that long, meaning a huge cost and stock of timber to any maker in order to get well seasoned timber for use, I hate Blackwood because of this, on the other hand I like my Hunter Blackwood chanter which was made from a twenty year old piece of the black stuff, over tens years ago, which never moves.
Good quality Blackwood that has settled and dried naturally is the best to use because the water has been able to escape at a slower rate which in turn allows the cellular structures within to collapse around each other leaving them packed closer together.
Where as kiln dried timbers tend to heat up swell and force out the water leaving larger dryer pockets, where sudden huge enviormental changes can act upon the wood, sometimes quite drastically in warping twisting etc, the same goes for Ebony or any other timber, especially fruitwoods which have very little in the way of resin in the first place.
Most Blackwood comes up for sale only a few weeks after it has been cut in the modern way with circular saws, band saws etc, if the saw is blunt the timber gets hot and shake inside a billet can occur, cutting timber the old fashioned way is the best, by using a froe, this axe like cutting implement follows the line of natural grain
where as sawing cut across it leaving weaker areas, froeing is quite wastefull but far the best way to get stable timber.
I have heard the saying before that the queen of all chanters is always made from Ebony.
The fixed parameters of the same reed in each chanter and made by the same maker to hear the differences is true, but the quality of the cane used from year to year also makes a big difference to the overall sound, especially when making them from cane grown in different countries.
The subject of tone is vast when using any natural product/s, the composite chanter reed would change the reliability issuse for sure, just like comp drones and reg reeds has shown us.
Sometimes you get everything just right, the timber, reed and tuning will all shine from an instrument you have made in exactly the same way as any other for years, this doesn't happen every time, but using poorer quality timber it can go either way, as the poorer timber can shrink down quite quickly altering the optimum settings put in place when the instrument was first made, I also mention before that I have see an instrument which shrunk down and actually became better, that's wood for you.
Anima said his concert D chanter is playing the best it ever has and he doesn't know what he has done to it, probably nothing is the answer, where his narrow bore D has gone flat in the upper hand, that is the variation I was talking about in other posts, roll on the composite chanter reed for the Ebony chanter.
Davy.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: bagpipeworks on 2003-03-02 08:51 ]</font>
As many of you are aware there is a marked difference between Ebony and Blackwood and Blackwood mentioned here.
The higher resin content of Blackwood and similar timbers stops and reflects away most of the engergies produced by the standing wave form, producing a sharper and louder sound from each tone hole lattice and the bell note of the instrument.
Magaeb mentioned there is also a difference between Blackwood and Blackwood, this is down to a difference between good densce instrument grade and poorer grades of the same timber, the higher the quality the denscer the timber etc.
Most timbers loose most of their water content in the first year of billetting it,
Blackwood and Lignum are the most difficult
to season and work with because of their reluctance to part with liquids and why I recommend at least six months to a year between each stage of manufacture.
This is hard because many folks don't want to wait that long, meaning a huge cost and stock of timber to any maker in order to get well seasoned timber for use, I hate Blackwood because of this, on the other hand I like my Hunter Blackwood chanter which was made from a twenty year old piece of the black stuff, over tens years ago, which never moves.
Good quality Blackwood that has settled and dried naturally is the best to use because the water has been able to escape at a slower rate which in turn allows the cellular structures within to collapse around each other leaving them packed closer together.
Where as kiln dried timbers tend to heat up swell and force out the water leaving larger dryer pockets, where sudden huge enviormental changes can act upon the wood, sometimes quite drastically in warping twisting etc, the same goes for Ebony or any other timber, especially fruitwoods which have very little in the way of resin in the first place.
Most Blackwood comes up for sale only a few weeks after it has been cut in the modern way with circular saws, band saws etc, if the saw is blunt the timber gets hot and shake inside a billet can occur, cutting timber the old fashioned way is the best, by using a froe, this axe like cutting implement follows the line of natural grain
where as sawing cut across it leaving weaker areas, froeing is quite wastefull but far the best way to get stable timber.
I have heard the saying before that the queen of all chanters is always made from Ebony.
The fixed parameters of the same reed in each chanter and made by the same maker to hear the differences is true, but the quality of the cane used from year to year also makes a big difference to the overall sound, especially when making them from cane grown in different countries.
The subject of tone is vast when using any natural product/s, the composite chanter reed would change the reliability issuse for sure, just like comp drones and reg reeds has shown us.
Sometimes you get everything just right, the timber, reed and tuning will all shine from an instrument you have made in exactly the same way as any other for years, this doesn't happen every time, but using poorer quality timber it can go either way, as the poorer timber can shrink down quite quickly altering the optimum settings put in place when the instrument was first made, I also mention before that I have see an instrument which shrunk down and actually became better, that's wood for you.
Anima said his concert D chanter is playing the best it ever has and he doesn't know what he has done to it, probably nothing is the answer, where his narrow bore D has gone flat in the upper hand, that is the variation I was talking about in other posts, roll on the composite chanter reed for the Ebony chanter.
Davy.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: bagpipeworks on 2003-03-02 08:51 ]</font>
Thank you for your interest in my website Lorenzo.
It is not importand, but the last part of the translation given is, I beg your pardon, totaly wrong. It makes no sense. I think it is better to give a better translation, even this text is really unimportand.
The meaning is only:
"If you make your own reamers it is better to make each reamer with only one cone, even if you know you need a bore with more cones. In this case make more reamer with different cones"
I have never made reamer "put together sometimes out of different metal".
markus
It is not importand, but the last part of the translation given is, I beg your pardon, totaly wrong. It makes no sense. I think it is better to give a better translation, even this text is really unimportand.
The meaning is only:
"If you make your own reamers it is better to make each reamer with only one cone, even if you know you need a bore with more cones. In this case make more reamer with different cones"
I have never made reamer "put together sometimes out of different metal".
markus