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 Post subject: Re: ABC Question
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:35 pm 
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JackCampin wrote:
The problem with segnos in ABC is that there is no standard for them that player programs can use. It doesn't make sense to use notation which only dictates the generated notation when it significantly affects the way the tune sounds. (Gonzato introduced a lot of that crap in his "ABC Plus" proposal).

I would either write out the repeated section or use the "P:" construct. Like this:

Code:
X:1
T:We'll A' to Kelso Go
C:ABA
M:6/8
L:1/8
Q:3/8=120 "  Brisk"
P:ABA
K:G
P:A
|: D   |G>AB g>ag|Tf>ed g2d| e/f/ge dBG|A>BA c>de|
        G>AB g>ab| afd  g2d| e/f/ge dBA|B3   g2 :|
P:B
|: g/a/|bgb  afa | geg  dBd|(G>AB)  gdB|AaA  c>de|
        G>AB gag |afd   g2d| e/f/ge dBA|B3   g2 :|


The space before "Brisk" is needed by both BarFly and abcm2ps to stop the word colliding with other stuff. BarFly doesn't print the part order unless you fool it, so I put it in the composer field.


Hmmm.

1) I don't think the collision of items is a problem with the newer versions of abcm2ps. You might want to get a new version Jack.

2) If you are printing the music from Barfly using abcm2ps then you can turn on the ability to print the part order then the command

%%printparts 1

at the head of the file will print the parts. Or, you can insert that command (without the %%) in a format file you use.

3) I believe Jack is correct about playback of the segno marks not being done properly in the MIDI player routines, but as I said in the previous post I don't believe the segno marks are actually being used as we would. I didn't see any "D.S. al fine" nor did I see any "Fine" in the example shown. Hence, my conculsion.


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 Post subject: Re: ABC Question
PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 9:44 pm 
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MTGuru wrote:
I.D.10-t wrote:
Now it looks like there is an update The abc music standard 2.1. Wonder what's different.

Interesting. v2.0 was around forever, as a draft that wasn't a draft.


Version 2.0 is now approved, and 2.1 is well under way. Currently there is a huge argument about how to specify music for transposing instruments. Once that is settled I believe that 2.1 will be set and work will begin on 2.2 (for which some issues have been left since the wish is to get 2.1 out there as a standard for the software folks). The changes should help. Meanwhile, I'd encourage folks using abcm2ps and abc2midi to go get the current versions and read the information files. There are many improvements and many added commands to make playback or print/display much more controllable than they have been. Mac versions are available at Guido Gonzato's site. Let me know by PM if you have trouble with them, since I compiled them.

I'd also suggest a read through Guido Gonzato's "ABC-Plus" manual where you can find all sorts of information about how to use abc2MIDI and abcm2ps as well as a complete listing of most of the extended commands available for each program. Not all of the changes are there though, since that documentation is a bit out of date. There is quite extensive documentation in the materials that accompany abc2MIDI and abcm2ps when you download them.

We're a long way from whistle here though...Should the topic be moved or perhaps stopped??


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 Post subject: Re: ABC Question
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 1:18 am 
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cboody wrote:
We're a long way from whistle here though...Should the topic be moved or perhaps stopped??

No, we're in the Trad Tech forum, where we ought to be. :-)

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 Post subject: Re: ABC Question
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:39 am 
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My question was answered earlier, but additional ABC information still fits neatly in the subject of the title of the thread. Originally it was in the Pub and then got moved over to the Tech forum, so it all sits well here.

I was told that the ABC Convert-A-Matic on concertina.net uses abcm2ps, so I think I'll be using that for the time being. I like the front-end, and was unable to get the install to work on the windows binaries of abcm2ps. Not having to install a program when I work on more than one computer is a plus too.

As long as it is easier than reading something like this, I'll be happy. (This is fairly typical)

Image

My best guess at interpreting it is

X: 1
T: Betty Land
M: C|
L: 1/8
K: D
%%graceslurs 0
A2|d2(ec)d2(AG)|(GF) (ED)A2GF|G2BGE2(ge)|(dc)z4:|A2|(dA)(B^c){c}B2(AG)|eBcd {d} c2(BA)|
d2(fa) (ge) (dc)|(d/2e/2f/2e/2) (d/2c/2B/2A/2) (BA/2G/2) (FE)|(eB)(cd) {d} c2(BA)|d2(fa) (ge) (dc)|d4z2|]


~~~~~~~~~~~
I somehow missed this post.
cboody wrote:
2) what looks like a "w" at the end of lines is probably a marker for what note is to be played at the start of the following line. At least this is quite common. Once I knew why that particular symbol, but alas the knowledge has been erased from memory.

3) The extra dark lines at the end of a tune are probably a marker of the end of a tune. Often in manuscript books the writer will save space be starting a new tune on the same line of staff paper, and the dark marks make it easy for the player to stop reading forward through the tune and jump back to the start (the previous set of dark lines).

Yep, the "w" has been pretty much been identified and acts as you said, I just wish I could reproduce it in ABC. I don't know why there are four marks rather than the now standard |] type ending, but again, it would be neat to somehow retain it.

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 Post subject: Re: ABC Question
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:46 am 
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1) There is an abc forum where you could post questions and doubtless someone there has the answers you need. it is at

abcusers@yahoogroups.com

and you could go to the group at yahoo and subscribe I believe. I've actually forgotten, but perhaps someone here can fill you in further.

2) I seem to recall some discussion about the w bit, but I can't find it in my materials anywhere. I'll ask the question of the forum.

3)You could get the black bar by appending Lz32 after your music (one time for each bar) That "32" implies L:1/8. If this doesn't work try other multiples of 4.

4) I'd strongly suggest you get EasyABC to work with. It wraps around abcm2ps so you can see your music on the screen immediately exactly as it will appear printed. And, you can stick a version of the newest version of abcm2ps somewhere and link to it directly so you'll always be able to use the latest and greatest.

Glad we're in the Tech forum MT. Thanks for the heads up.

Hope this helps.

Chuck Boody


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 Post subject: Re: ABC Question
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 1:56 am 
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A couple small suggestions on the ABC:

X: 1
T: Betty Land
M: C|
L: 1/8
K: D
%%graceslurs 0
A2|d2{d}(ec)d2(AG)|(GF) (ED)A2GF|G2BGE2(ge)|(dc)z4:|A2|(dA)(B=c){c}B2(AG)|eBcd {d} c2(BA)|
d2(fa) (ge) (dc)|(d/2e/2f/2e/2) (d/2c/2B/2A/2) (BA/2G/2) (FE)|(eB)(cd) {d} c2(BA)|d2(fa) (ge) (dc)|d4z2|]z32z32

There's a grace note in the first bar, the first "c" in the second section is marked natural not sharp, and, though I didn't change this the four eighth notes in the first full bar of the second section would seem to me to be under a single slur rather than 2 shorter slurs. I put in the two extra bars, but I don't like the spacing much (and note the "L" is not needed). I'll play around with that a bit.

Just suggestions....


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 Post subject: Re: ABC Question
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 6:32 am 
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Don't know what I was thinking with the sharp, of course it is a natural, good catch, same with the grace note I missed. For the most I was trying to show the minor proofreading I have to do with the original piece. Beats per measure, clarity, etc. I'm still trying to find the line I want to draw between transcribing and interpreting. Even at that I have to be conscious of my lack of music knowledge and copy error rate. I am sure I'll have to give the whole document a thorough proofreading when I am done.

I'll have to look into EasyABC, the big thing I am missing is the ability to print several tunes on one page. Eventually I would like to figure out a way to set it up as an HTML so I don't know how useful .ps format will be in the long run, but that is a long way into the future.
~~~~
Downloaded EasyABC, about the same interface as another program I have used, but less buggy and over all it is much more polished, and seems to handle errors better and can play midis with things like trills. It will be a useful tool. Now if only I could change the default midi instrument from piano...

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 Post subject: Re: ABC Question
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:58 pm 
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The wiggle at the end of the first line simply means "there is another line coming". You don't need to notate it in ABC.

The tapering parallel lines at the end are simply the end of the tune, with the same meaning as a thin-thick double bar. They DO NOT mean an immensely long rest. Just write "|]".

It's more important to get the ABC readable (so that beats align between lines when displayed monospaced) than to try to reproduce semantically irrelevant typographic details. If the ABC is readable you're less likely to make transcription mistakes.

There is an ABC forum at http://abcnotation.com/forums . Not very active. I dropped out of the ABC forum after Toby Rider dropped it - some people went off to Yahoo, but no way was I ever going to subscribe to a forum run by that bunch of spamming arseholes.

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 Post subject: Re: ABC Question
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:49 pm 
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JackCampin wrote:
The wiggle at the end of the first line simply means "there is another line coming". You don't need to notate it in ABC.
Yep, I know that, but if I could preserve that aspect in ABC, I would.

JackCampin wrote:
The tapering parallel lines at the end are simply the end of the tune, with the same meaning as a thin-thick double bar. They DO NOT mean an immensely long rest. Just write "|]".
That is true, but same as before. It is a moot point since the four bar thing is not an option.

JackCampin wrote:
It's more important to get the ABC readable (so that beats align between lines when displayed monospaced) than to try to reproduce semantically irrelevant typographic details. If the ABC is readable you're less likely to make transcription mistakes.
I think we have a difference in opinion here. I copied about 20 pages of index, terms, and examples that are pretty much useless to anyone that just wants to play the tunes. In reality, if all I wanted was to preserve the tunes, I could skip well known tunes like Rural Felicity and The Rakes of Marlow. Easier yet, I could just be content with the PDF.

Basically I saw the book referenced several times but couldn't find a modern reprint of it. So, for now I am just trying to reproduce most of it with slight editing in places where it is absolutely needed, but leaving the harmless quirks and redundancies where possible. The most important thing is that I like what I am doing, otherwise, I couldn't bring myself to do any of it. The logic in many ways is probably lacking...

JackCampin wrote:
There is an ABC forum at http://abcnotation.com/forums . Not very active. I dropped out of the ABC forum after Toby Rider dropped it - some people went off to Yahoo

I'll have to check out the yahoo group.

I'll just add I'm greatful for the pointers I have recieved so far. Thanks all.

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 Post subject: Re: ABC Question
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 12:42 am 
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JackCampin wrote:
The wiggle at the end of the first line simply means "there is another line coming". You don't need to notate it in ABC.

The tapering parallel lines at the end are simply the end of the tune, with the same meaning as a thin-thick double bar. They DO NOT mean an immensely long rest. Just write "|]".

It's more important to get the ABC readable (so that beats align between lines when displayed monospaced) than to try to reproduce semantically irrelevant typographic details. If the ABC is readable you're less likely to make transcription mistakes.

There is an ABC forum at http://abcnotation.com/forums . Not very active. I dropped out of the ABC forum after Toby Rider dropped it - some people went off to Yahoo, but no way was I ever going to subscribe to a forum run by that bunch of spamming arseholes.


Well, I don't quite agree Jack. The wiggle, if properly done, indicates the pitch of the coming note on the next line. You certainly don't need it, but there may be a way.

Jack, you misread my comments about the long rests. Using the long rests is a way to get the kind of bar the OP wants. It certainly has nothing to do with actually meaning rests. Though, in passing, since they come after the end of the tune the rests would not interfere with the playing of the tune unless you were looping it.

In EasyABC you can select a tune and choose "Align Bars" in the edit menu and it will line up things nicely (it uses a monospaced font for abc display). Quick, neat, and as Jack says helpful for proofing.

To change the playback sound of the melody go to "ABC Settings" in the settings menu. In the dialog window that opens up you'll see a field where you can change the sound. I''m not sure exactly what you may see there. It probably depends on the sound generating device in the PC. On a Mac no problem. No way to change the sound of the "boom-chick" chord accompaniment, but you can turn it off and probably don't need it anyway for the book you are working on.

Finally, you misunderstand Jack's comments about spacing the abc I think. He's talking about spacing out the ABC itself NOT the resultant music.


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 Post subject: Re: ABC Question
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 7:31 am 
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cboody wrote:
I'm not sure exactly what you may see there. It probably depends on the sound generating device in the PC.
I was trying to use the I: function to choose instrument code 73 or 74 (really anything but piano). It seems that the instrument standards for midi are fairly standardized. I should have been able to do this by adding %%MIDI voice instrument=73, but changing the program default is a better solution.

cboody wrote:
Finally, you misunderstand Jack's comments about spacing the abc I think. He's talking about spacing out the ABC itself NOT the resultant music.

If there is a standard I'd probably conform to it. One consistency thing I realize I have has to do with how I break up quarter note and eighth notes. Sometimes I use dfg2fd other times df g2 fd. I try to save screen space because for me it makes things easier to compare, but sometimes break it up in the way I would two strings of eighth notes. For me the text wraps around the page and doesn't come close to the spacing of the notation I am coping from, so It doesn't really matter if they are additional spaces to line things up better.

I guess there are two ways to use ABC notation, one as music notation itself, in which case I would strip out everything except the bare essentials, and another where it is used as an input to create sheet music. I am concentrating on the latter but to make it "legible" removing the +segno+, +trill+, etc. seems trivial, especially compared to going back to insert those marks for sheet music.

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 Post subject: Re: ABC Question
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:56 pm 
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I.D.10-t wrote:
I was trying to use the I: function to choose instrument code 73 or 74 (really anything but piano). It seems that the instrument standards for midi are fairly standardized. I should have been able to do this by adding %%MIDI voice instrument=73, but changing the program default is a better solution.


%% MIDI program 73

would have worked. You just had the syntax wrong. The I: is an information command in the header and abc2MIDI will ignore it.

As to spacing: aside from barring of notes by not leaving spaces between them there is no standard. I usually write things as compressed as possible when entering music, but then spacing things out afterwards will make it much easier to correct.


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 Post subject: Re: ABC Question
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 4:58 am 
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The point about making the ABC source legible is that it provides a check on correctness of transcription. If what you've written doesn't look right there's a good chance it isn't right (either your mistake, or maybe there was a mistake in the original that requires editorial intervention).

I normally use BarFly for transcription. That gives me four different kinds of correctness check, and I use them all on every tune:

- viewing the staff notation
- listening to a playback
- aligning the ABC source
- built-in error checking, e.g. for consistent bar lengths

The last will not work if you deliberately introduce nonsense like rests for purely graphical effect, and if you put in stuff that can't play right, the playback won't tell you anything.

"+trill+" is silly. "T" has been standard notation for trills in almost all ABC software for 10 years now.

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 Post subject: Re: ABC Question
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:07 am 
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I don't think Barfly is cross platform, so I cannot check to see how it differs from EasyABC. Easy ABC seems to have the same checks and doesn't seem to have problems with redundancies. +trill+ may seem like a pain, but If I ever wanted to change it I can simply do a find>replace function to either change it to "T" or delete it completely. With plain "T" replacement for the document would cause problems because it would cause titles to be changed too. For general use though, I can see how "T" would be preferred.

As for the rests being used for a graphical element, that would be put in last (if at all) with a simple replacement of |] with whatever else, but that is not what I would be going for. The document doesn't use the modern thin-space-thick line, so basically it is like the :S: or quarter rest symbols, a different font. A better example is the titles. Chances are I will not be able to find a simple way to render the things with the same script as the book, and I'll end up with something like Times New Roman.

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 Post subject: Re: ABC Question
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:49 am 
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Can't EasyABC recognize "T" as meaning a trill?

If you use standard ABC, other software can process it. Playback programs can interpret a "T" as some sort of macro and do the appropriate (in BarFly you can redefine it to suit the idiom). "+trill+" is an archaic idiom that only generates staff notation.

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