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Jig Title
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Author:  an seanduine [ Mon Apr 09, 2012 1:14 am ]
Post subject:  Jig Title

I'm struggling with a translation for a jig title. It is given as Muing Fliuch. I find nothing of value through Google. They suggest the alternative 'Muine Fliuch', which leads me to several possibilities: The Wet Thicket, Moneyflugh, or a Kerry variant: The West Thicket.
Can anyone please give me assistance on this one. . .my Irish is extremely poor.

Bob

Author:  MTGuru [ Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:32 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jig Title

an seanduine wrote:
my Irish is extremely poor.

So is mine, but I'll take a run at it.

Seems likely that the title refers simply to the town of Moneyflugh, Co. Kerry. So it's another tune named after a place, and that's that. The Irish name Muine Fliuch would mean "Wet Thicket", in parallel with other "Money-" town names: Moneygall, Moneyglass, etc. See this Google Books excerpt for one listing:

http://books.google.com/books?id=w_B0Ou ... ch&f=false

"West Thicket" sounds like an Anglophone misinterpretation, especially if Moneyflugh is to the west of some other well-known local place.

As for Muing vs Muine, don't know. Could be that the "g" is a misreading orthographically influenced by the "y" of Money-. What is the source of the jig title as you have it?

Author:  an seanduine [ Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jig Title

Thank you. I picked up the Moneyflugh-West Thicket connection in the Oxford list you cited. I've even picked up a school named 'Muine Fliuch', which I think is in Kerry. I've also been given an alternate in Ulster of translating 'Muine' as a peat-bog, which certainly makes sense with 'fliuch'. So 'Wet Wood' or 'Soggy Bog' would certainly serve as a provisional translation. . .IF my presumption that 'Muing' is an error.
This is the given title, without an English translation, as one of the tunes in Conal O'Grada's book. So-o-o, I reluctant to out and out say it's a mistake: Port Muing Fliuch.

Thanks for the help.

Bob

Author:  benhall.1 [ Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jig Title

As a side issue, it occurs to me that there are an awful lot of occasions when the Irish seem to use the word "thicket". In English, I can't remember the last time I used the word "thicket". Apart from that one. And the one before.

Author:  an seanduine [ Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jig Title

Hmmm. Well a search over at The Session reveals this: Muing A TSionnaigh, a Jig, composed by Conal himself and taught at last years Flute Gathering. The Translation is given as the 'Field of the Fox', referring to a field behind his house. I guess this answers my original question. . .and now I can do my Emily Littela impersonation and say "Never mind!". :oops:

Bob

Author:  MTGuru [ Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jig Title

OK, so The Wet Field, then. A local usage, perhaps? Or even idiosyncratic? Where is Conal from, Ulster? I'd guess "muine" could be "muing", with pronunciation differences. And geographic features like thicket and field can sometimes be fungible.

Author:  benhall.1 [ Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jig Title

Fungible! I love "fungible". :love:

[I should be careful here, and not cut too many monkeyshines for fear of inadvertently or inappropriately sequestrating this indubitably goluptious thread.]

Author:  JackCampin [ Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jig Title

The obvious parallel is with another jig, "An Phis Fliuch".

"Phis" is apparently a borrowing, from an English word for a small furry animal with sharp claws.

Could "muing" be a loan from (or the original of) "minge"?

Author:  Nanohedron [ Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jig Title

Surely you're taking the pis.

Author:  an seanduine [ Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jig Title

Ummm. Jack, I don't have any problem translating 'An Phis Fliuch'. My understanding is that 'phis' would be analogous to the anglo-saxon pisser (O.E. pizzle).
An Phis Fliuch is a Slip Jig.
Port Muing Fliuch is a Double Jig.

My Irish vocabulary is pitiful. I don't know 'Muing', but by context I know Conal is using it to mean a 'field', when he titled another Jig "Muing A TSionnaigh", Field of the Fox. I don't know enough Irish to know how 'muing' might change in another inflection. Right now my provisional translation would be 'The Wet Field Jig' or alternatively 'The Soggy Field Jig.

Bob

Author:  Nanohedron [ Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jig Title

an seanduine wrote:
My understanding is that 'phis' would be analogous to the anglo-saxon pisser (O.E. pizzle).

Just to interject that the word is actually "pis" (as I punned with, in kind, above). The H, signifying lenition, happens in cases such as this when feminine nouns follow the definite article "an". Typical dictionaries translate "pis" (nf2) as "pea", so the more arch definition seems to be merely a common vulgarity (there is a proper term, after all) that for all we know has only an accidentally superficial resemblance to the word for the legume it otherwise normally represents. Until an expert can tell us, I'm tempted to doubt (no expert, here) whether in the vulgar usage it has any direct connection to English; and after all, one is concave, you could say, and the other, well, convex.

There's a River Muing in Co. Mayo. That would certainly be damp.

After some heavy digging, what I find is that muine means "thicket", and muing means "fen, morass" (not necessarily "bog" which is usually portach). Neither term in English has ever seemed that interchangeable to me, and we know that one letter can make a world of difference. For example, "thicket" and "thicker" are close, but no actual fungibility there, either. There's an even greater distance of meaning between lacha (duck) and lacht (milk). Just tossing the general idea out there.

Author:  an seanduine [ Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:31 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jig Title

Thanks Nano.
I get the lenition.
As to vulgarity, Honi soit qui mal y pense.
As to concavity and convexity. . . !(the source of all vexation?) I'm not sure how to inflect gender in Old English, let alone Irish. :D
Guess I may have to pester Conal. My understanding is he was reared in and around Cork, so probably speaks a Kerry brand of Gaelic, if not a thoroughly academic form through the schools.

Bob

Author:  Redwolf [ Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jig Title

I'm asking for expert input here:

http://irishlearner.awyr.com/phpBB3/vie ... f=28&t=991

If I recall correctly, "An Phis Fluich" is actually pretty vulgar...

BTW, it's An (or A') tSionnaigh. The "t" would never be uppercase.

Redwolf

Author:  an seanduine [ Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Jig Title

Thanks Redwolf. I was hoping you'd come by!
I copied the title to the other jig (The field of the fox) straight from The Session.Org, and so am not surprised by it being spelled incorrectly. I'm sure I'd recognize a fox if I saw one, just not necessarily in Irish!

No need for vulgarity where it is unwanted: I've heard the Slip Jig introduced as: O'Farrel's Wlcome to Limerick, and what a Welcome it Was!

Now I am curious to hear what we have with "Port Muing Fliuch".

Bob

Author:  Redwolf [ Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Jig Title

BTW, "pis" is slang for...er...female reproductive apparatus. I believe the Chieftains rendered it as "The Wet Pussy" (and they weren't talking about kitty cats!)

Redwolf

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