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 Post subject: Re: crabapple
PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 12:13 am 
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talasiga wrote:
So, Redwolf, question in good faith,
what is gooseberry in Irish Gaelic?


Spionán

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 11:03 am 
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What difference a síneadh fada makes! Add one to the "I" and you get "spinach".

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 20, 2010 7:05 pm 
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Nanohedron wrote:
What difference a síneadh fada makes! Add one to the "I" and you get "spinach".


I'll have to remember that one as an example for my class. I always give "Seán/Séan/Sean" and "Éire/Eire," but maybe they'll remember it better if they end up with spinach instead of gooseberries!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 8:33 am 
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Ma_O wrote:
The main problem is for now - is there enough material to work with? I mean, could you at least name some books (they are better to be 'big')) dealing with the history of irish/scottish musical art (piping incl.)?



For Scottish Highland Piping, the best book about the music is probably Donaldson's Scottish Bagpipe and Highland Society http://www.amazon.com/Highland-Pipe-Sco ... 1862320756 .

A lot of the earliest manuscripts of pipe music are in the Library of Scotland, but the Piobaireachd Society -- www.piobaireachd.co.uk -- has most of those online.

In Welsh, the Robert ap Huw MS has a fair amount of text. The Welsh claimed to have gotten their music from the Irish so maybe there's something in it.

It seems like people who study Highland Piping generally only study piping, and only in the Highlands. I'm sure there is a lot to be discovered by looking outside for related topics.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 4:52 pm 
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Redwolf wrote:
talasiga wrote:
yes, interesting. I speculate that the crab in crabapples is from Irish Gaelic meaning sour.


The Irish word for "sour" is "searbh." Sour apple would be "Úll Searbh" (ool SHAR-uv). The Irish term for the crab apple tree is "Fia-Úll" (deer apple), so I think it unlikely.

(Granted you're probably kidding, but since the OP isn't a native English speaker I thought it best to clarify).

............



Surely the language has more than one word/morpheme for sour (also considering dialects).

I mean what about the word that sounds like "su craiv" and which is probably written something like "su craibh" (?) which if I recall rightly refers to sour nectar and is used metaphorically for sour berries?

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:02 pm 
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Nanohedron wrote:
What difference a síneadh fada makes! Add one to the "I" and you get "spinach".


Yes, this is not special to Irish gaelic of course.

For instance in indic languages we have seperate letters for long and short vowels.
Rama meaning the god is different from Rama the goddess. The former has a long "a' as in "father" in its first syllable and the latter a short vowel as in "rum" but the long "a" at the end.

Of course this can be shown by putting a diacritic in when writing the first Rama so that the "a" has a horizontal bar above it just like a fada functions but this is mostly not done when writing in English (a hassle) (and a "fada" over the second vowel in the feminine Rama). I prefer to write the first Rama as Raama therefore and the second as Ramaa. However that isn't a popular way in English but fellow Indians are quite happy with it and use this way themselves.

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Last edited by talasiga on Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 5:02 pm 
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talasiga wrote:
Redwolf wrote:
talasiga wrote:
yes, interesting. I speculate that the crab in crabapples is from Irish Gaelic meaning sour.


The Irish word for "sour" is "searbh." Sour apple would be "Úll Searbh" (ool SHAR-uv). The Irish term for the crab apple tree is "Fia-Úll" (deer apple), so I think it unlikely.

(Granted you're probably kidding, but since the OP isn't a native English speaker I thought it best to clarify).

............



Surely the language has more than one word/morpheme for sour (also considering dialects).

I mean what about the word that sounds like "su craiv" and which is probably written something like "su craibh" (?) which if I recall rightly refers to sour nectar and is used metaphorically for sour berries?


I can't find anything like what you describe. I've checked all my dictionaries, and the only words given for "sour" are "searbh" (which can also mean "bitter") and "géar" (which can also mean "sharp," and is used more in the sense of something that has "soured," such as milk, or a "sour" personality).

The closest I can find to what you're describing is "sú craobh" (raspberry), which would be pronounced soo cree-oo/creev/crayv, depending on dialect, but "craobh" here means "branch," not "sour."

If you can tell me where you've encountered it, perhaps I can find out more. It may be an old term that's not in use anymore.

Redwolf

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 21, 2010 10:49 pm 
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Redwolf wrote:
.....
I can't find anything like what you describe. I've checked all my dictionaries, and the only words given for "sour" are "searbh" (which can also mean "bitter") and "géar" (which can also mean "sharp," and is used more in the sense of something that has "soured," such as milk, or a "sour" personality).

The closest I can find to what you're describing is "sú craobh" (raspberry), which would be pronounced soo cree-oo/creev/crayv, depending on dialect, but "craobh" here means "branch," not "sour."

If you can tell me where you've encountered it, perhaps I can find out more. It may be an old term that's not in use anymore.

Redwolf



thanks, you HAVE found SOMETHING that goes towards my speculation even though the DETAIL of what I said may be faulty.

My speculation in the earlier post was whether the "crab" in "crab"apple could be from the Irish Gaelic and you have just told me that "craobh" means branch. I also recently said that word was pronounced "craiv" which is phonetically equal to one of your renderings of the pronunciation as "crayv".

Thanks again.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 26, 2010 3:49 am 
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Just want to say 'thanks' to all of You once more - I started my postgraduate study and the topic for my work is 'Characteristic (or description..) of english and irish folklore'. But as my adviser is a specialist in literature, we decided that my work will be based primarily on sagas, legends, that kind of stuff. Still I hope that I will be able to devote at least several pages to music))


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