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Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords
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Author:  MTGuru [ Sun Jan 03, 2010 4:04 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

Actually, if anything, I'd guess it's the other way around ... That "so long" is a misheard "slán" from Irish immigrants in America.

Author:  Redwolf [ Sun Jan 03, 2010 5:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

MTGuru wrote:
Actually, if anything, I'd guess it's the other way around ... That "so long" is a misheard "slán" from Irish immigrants in America.


I think that's what was meant.

It certainly seems plausible. "So long" is one of those idioms you don't think much about...until you do think about them and realize they don't make much sense. I could easily see someone mishearing "slán" as "so long."

Redwolf

Author:  MTGuru [ Sun Jan 03, 2010 6:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

Redwolf wrote:
I think that's what was meant.

Doh! :oops:

More theorizing, including possible Yiddish or Scandinavian origins:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=s&p=31

Hmm. The 1860 date of first attestation with Whitman follows the great wave of Irish immigration. And the class origins. And the working classes of Liverpool. All point to Irish as pretty plausible, I'd say.

Author:  Redwolf [ Sun Jan 03, 2010 7:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

I question that dictionary's scholarship, since they not only misspell "slán," they refer to it as a "toast or salutation"...obviously confusing it with "sláinte."

I do think you're right, though...especially given the timing.

Redwolf

Author:  runaí [ Sun Jan 03, 2010 10:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

I couldnt possibly take the credit for it. All dues go to the Dublin Viking Museum where I took the tour with the kids round 10years ago :D . Where I live in Belfast we still retain alot of the grammatical structures of Irish if not the words themselves. We still say `I be down in Maddens` as a way of saying `I am usually in Maddens`, and there are alot of other examples besides.

Author:  oleorezinator [ Fri Apr 30, 2010 7:15 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

not to put the kibosh on this thread.......

1836, kye-bosk, in slang phrase put the kibosh on, of unknown origin, despite intense speculation. Looks Yiddish, but origin in early 19c. English slang seems to argue against this. One candidate is Ir. caip bháis, caipín báis "cap of death," sometimes said to be the black cap a judge would don when pronouncing a death sentence, but in other sources identified as a gruesome method of execution "employed by Brit. forces against 1798 insurgents" [Bernard Share, "Slanguage, A Dictionary of Irish Slang"].

Author:  macdara [ Thu Aug 18, 2011 11:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

[Thread revival. - Mod]

Shanty,as in shanty towns etc.Sean ti.Saw an old wreck on Oileáin Cléire with this name.Any old derelict house really.

Author:  Redwolf [ Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

macdara wrote:
[Thread revival. - Mod]

Shanty,as in shanty towns etc.Sean ti.Saw an old wreck on Oileáin Cléire with this name.Any old derelict house really.


Sure. "Sean-Tí" = "Old House" (quite literally)

Redwolf

Author:  macdara [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 6:58 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

Redwolf wrote:
macdara wrote:
[Thread revival. - Mod]

Shanty,as in shanty towns etc.Sean ti.Saw an old wreck on Oileáin Cléire with this name.Any old derelict house really.


Sure. "Sean-Tí" = "Old House" (quite literally)

Redwolf


I've seen some other derivation for it - from French Canadian,I think.Seemed a bit tortuous and contrived.

What about 'cop on' - to realise or 'get' something,a bit like 'twig' and 'dig'.Maybe from 'Ceapaim' = I think/an gceapainn tú =do you think?

Shanty is a definite for me though as it's so prevalent in the caribbean - where tens of thousands of Irish were 're-located from the 1650s onwards.

Author:  Innocent Bystander [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 7:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

Is there any reason to suppose that the English (or possibly Scots) term "dour" came from the Irish "dúr" (stupid)?

Author:  Nanohedron [ Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

Merriam-Webster sez that the Latin durus (hard) is the source, and the word "dour" itself is from Middle English. But who knows; this stuff gets convoluted after a bit of time, and even the best dictionaries evade infallibility. Anyway and FWIW, in reasonably typical Yank fashion I defiantly continue to pronounce it "daur" (not quite "dower"), and above all with rhotic R as God intended, and rightly, I think. :wink:

Author:  macdara [ Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

Immoderator mentions Liverpool,where a common - and unique - term of affection is 'wack'.But I've only heard it applied to men/boys.Surely from 'a mhac' - 'son'?

Redwolf -I was 'corrected' by a fellow Irishman for writing 'Slán' on the end of a greeting card! Quite a lot of indifference to the ould teanga here I'm afraid.Perhaps if I'd used 'slán tamall' or 'slan go foill' he may have copped on.
I'd be very wary of books sold in tourist destinations here in Ireland.Especially those which claim to tell you the origin of families or the meanings of personal and placenames.I've seen some almost hilarious clangers.As a general rule never buy a book with a leprechaun,a bunch of shamrocks or a pint of porter on the cover!

Nanohedron - non Rhotic accents are indeed the invention of Satan.But we musn't blame the victims.

Author:  brianholton [ Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

On the origin of 'dour' the Dictionary of the Scots Language says "Of doubtful origin. The vowel is not the normal equivalent of the u in F. dur or L. dūrus." See http://www.dsl.ac.uk/

Author:  osage59 [ Mon Nov 28, 2011 6:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

""As a general rule never buy a book with a leprechaun,a bunch of shamrocks or a pint of porter on the cover!""

Great. NOW you tell me! :really:

Author:  an seanduine [ Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:23 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

A little late, but US Navy slang from my tenure 40 years ago: a "Brogan" was the typical low-cut working boot issued to new recruits. . .very much like the photo up-thread. The mobile kitchen van that invariably showed up for breakfast and coffee breaks was referred to as "the Gee-dunk wagon" (derivation unknown) and its wares referred to as "Pogie-bait" (from Pogue I would guess).
I had heard that to say someone spoke with a Brogue was a derogatory saying derived from the thought that they spoke with a 'shoe on the end of their tongue'. A bit of snobbery from those who had a little more mastery of the English than the countryman they were putting down.
In the French-Canadian branch of my family, my Grandmother regularly made 'bannock', clearly named from Scot's usage. Not sure what the Gaelic would be for that.

Bob

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