Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

Tá Failte Romhat! For all conversation about the Irish language. Scots Gaelic discussion welcome.
Forum rules
The purpose of this forum is to provide a place for people who are interested in the Irish language and various Celtic languages to discuss them, to practice them, and to share information about them, particularly (but not exclusively) in the context of traditional music and culture.

This is not a "translation forum," per se, though translation requests may occasionally be honored at the discretion of the moderators. If you're seeking a one-time translation for something like a tattoo, engraving, wedding vow, or other such purpose, we strongly recommend that you visit our friends at ILF: http://irishlearner.awyr.com
User avatar
MTGuru
Posts: 18663
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:45 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

Post by MTGuru »

Actually, if anything, I'd guess it's the other way around ... That "so long" is a misheard "slán" from Irish immigrants in America.
Vivat diabolus in musica! MTGuru's (old) GG Clips / Blackbird Clips

Joel Barish: Is there any risk of brain damage?
Dr. Mierzwiak: Well, technically speaking, the procedure is brain damage.
User avatar
Redwolf
Posts: 6051
Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: Somewhere in the Western Hemisphere

Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

Post by Redwolf »

MTGuru wrote:Actually, if anything, I'd guess it's the other way around ... That "so long" is a misheard "slán" from Irish immigrants in America.
I think that's what was meant.

It certainly seems plausible. "So long" is one of those idioms you don't think much about...until you do think about them and realize they don't make much sense. I could easily see someone mishearing "slán" as "so long."

Redwolf
...agus déanfaidh mé do mholadh ar an gcruit a Dhia, a Dhia liom!
User avatar
MTGuru
Posts: 18663
Joined: Sat Sep 30, 2006 12:45 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Location: San Diego, CA

Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

Post by MTGuru »

Redwolf wrote:I think that's what was meant.
Doh! :oops:

More theorizing, including possible Yiddish or Scandinavian origins:

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=s&p=31

Hmm. The 1860 date of first attestation with Whitman follows the great wave of Irish immigration. And the class origins. And the working classes of Liverpool. All point to Irish as pretty plausible, I'd say.
Vivat diabolus in musica! MTGuru's (old) GG Clips / Blackbird Clips

Joel Barish: Is there any risk of brain damage?
Dr. Mierzwiak: Well, technically speaking, the procedure is brain damage.
User avatar
Redwolf
Posts: 6051
Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: Somewhere in the Western Hemisphere

Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

Post by Redwolf »

I question that dictionary's scholarship, since they not only misspell "slán," they refer to it as a "toast or salutation"...obviously confusing it with "sláinte."

I do think you're right, though...especially given the timing.

Redwolf
...agus déanfaidh mé do mholadh ar an gcruit a Dhia, a Dhia liom!
runaí
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu Dec 31, 2009 3:28 pm
antispam: No

Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

Post by runaí »

I couldnt possibly take the credit for it. All dues go to the Dublin Viking Museum where I took the tour with the kids round 10years ago :D . Where I live in Belfast we still retain alot of the grammatical structures of Irish if not the words themselves. We still say `I be down in Maddens` as a way of saying `I am usually in Maddens`, and there are alot of other examples besides.
User avatar
oleorezinator
Posts: 1625
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 1:21 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: I love uilleann pipes I love tin whistles I love flutes I love irish music I love concertinas I love bodhrans
Location: Behind the anthracite and shale curtain.

Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

Post by oleorezinator »

not to put the kibosh on this thread.......

1836, kye-bosk, in slang phrase put the kibosh on, of unknown origin, despite intense speculation. Looks Yiddish, but origin in early 19c. English slang seems to argue against this. One candidate is Ir. caip bháis, caipín báis "cap of death," sometimes said to be the black cap a judge would don when pronouncing a death sentence, but in other sources identified as a gruesome method of execution "employed by Brit. forces against 1798 insurgents" [Bernard Share, "Slanguage, A Dictionary of Irish Slang"].
Information is not knowledge.
Knowledge is not wisdom.
Wisdom is not truth.
Truth is not beauty. Beauty is not love.
Love is not music. Music is the best.
- Frank Zappa
macdara
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:23 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10

Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

Post by macdara »

[Thread revival. - Mod]

Shanty,as in shanty towns etc.Sean ti.Saw an old wreck on Oileáin Cléire with this name.Any old derelict house really.
User avatar
Redwolf
Posts: 6051
Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: Somewhere in the Western Hemisphere

Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

Post by Redwolf »

macdara wrote:[Thread revival. - Mod]

Shanty,as in shanty towns etc.Sean ti.Saw an old wreck on Oileáin Cléire with this name.Any old derelict house really.
Sure. "Sean-Tí" = "Old House" (quite literally)

Redwolf
...agus déanfaidh mé do mholadh ar an gcruit a Dhia, a Dhia liom!
macdara
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:23 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10

Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

Post by macdara »

Redwolf wrote:
macdara wrote:[Thread revival. - Mod]

Shanty,as in shanty towns etc.Sean ti.Saw an old wreck on Oileáin Cléire with this name.Any old derelict house really.
Sure. "Sean-Tí" = "Old House" (quite literally)

Redwolf
I've seen some other derivation for it - from French Canadian,I think.Seemed a bit tortuous and contrived.

What about 'cop on' - to realise or 'get' something,a bit like 'twig' and 'dig'.Maybe from 'Ceapaim' = I think/an gceapainn tú =do you think?

Shanty is a definite for me though as it's so prevalent in the caribbean - where tens of thousands of Irish were 're-located from the 1650s onwards.
User avatar
Innocent Bystander
Posts: 6816
Joined: Wed Aug 03, 2005 12:51 pm
antispam: No
Location: Directly above the centre of the Earth (UK)

Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

Post by Innocent Bystander »

Is there any reason to suppose that the English (or possibly Scots) term "dour" came from the Irish "dúr" (stupid)?
Wizard needs whiskey, badly!
User avatar
Nanohedron
Moderatorer
Posts: 38202
Joined: Wed Dec 18, 2002 6:00 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 8
Tell us something.: Been a fluter, citternist, and uilleann piper; committed now to the way of the harp.

Oh, yeah: also a mod here, not a spammer. A matter of opinion, perhaps.
Location: Lefse country

Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

Post by Nanohedron »

Merriam-Webster sez that the Latin durus (hard) is the source, and the word "dour" itself is from Middle English. But who knows; this stuff gets convoluted after a bit of time, and even the best dictionaries evade infallibility. Anyway and FWIW, in reasonably typical Yank fashion I defiantly continue to pronounce it "daur" (not quite "dower"), and above all with rhotic R as God intended, and rightly, I think. :wink:
"If you take music out of this world, you will have nothing but a ball of fire." - Tribal musician
macdara
Posts: 5
Joined: Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:23 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10

Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

Post by macdara »

Immoderator mentions Liverpool,where a common - and unique - term of affection is 'wack'.But I've only heard it applied to men/boys.Surely from 'a mhac' - 'son'?

Redwolf -I was 'corrected' by a fellow Irishman for writing 'Slán' on the end of a greeting card! Quite a lot of indifference to the ould teanga here I'm afraid.Perhaps if I'd used 'slán tamall' or 'slan go foill' he may have copped on.
I'd be very wary of books sold in tourist destinations here in Ireland.Especially those which claim to tell you the origin of families or the meanings of personal and placenames.I've seen some almost hilarious clangers.As a general rule never buy a book with a leprechaun,a bunch of shamrocks or a pint of porter on the cover!

Nanohedron - non Rhotic accents are indeed the invention of Satan.But we musn't blame the victims.
brianholton
Posts: 329
Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2003 2:31 am
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 10
Location: Melrose

Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

Post by brianholton »

On the origin of 'dour' the Dictionary of the Scots Language says "Of doubtful origin. The vowel is not the normal equivalent of the u in F. dur or L. dūrus." See http://www.dsl.ac.uk/
User avatar
osage59
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun Feb 20, 2011 4:03 pm
antispam: No
Please enter the next number in sequence: 12
Location: The Imperial Midwest

Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

Post by osage59 »

""As a general rule never buy a book with a leprechaun,a bunch of shamrocks or a pint of porter on the cover!""

Great. NOW you tell me! :really:
User avatar
an seanduine
Posts: 1997
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2009 10:06 pm
antispam: No
Location: just outside Xanadu

Re: Not-So-Obvious Irish (and Scots Gaelic) Loanwords

Post by an seanduine »

A little late, but US Navy slang from my tenure 40 years ago: a "Brogan" was the typical low-cut working boot issued to new recruits. . .very much like the photo up-thread. The mobile kitchen van that invariably showed up for breakfast and coffee breaks was referred to as "the Gee-dunk wagon" (derivation unknown) and its wares referred to as "Pogie-bait" (from Pogue I would guess).
I had heard that to say someone spoke with a Brogue was a derogatory saying derived from the thought that they spoke with a 'shoe on the end of their tongue'. A bit of snobbery from those who had a little more mastery of the English than the countryman they were putting down.
In the French-Canadian branch of my family, my Grandmother regularly made 'bannock', clearly named from Scot's usage. Not sure what the Gaelic would be for that.

Bob
Last edited by an seanduine on Wed Apr 04, 2012 3:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
Not everything you can count, counts. And not everything that counts, can be counted

The Expert's Mind has few possibilities.
The Beginner's mind has endless possibilities.
Shunryu Suzuki, Roshi
Post Reply