It is currently Wed Nov 25, 2020 7:12 pm

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Forum rules


The purpose of this forum is to provide a place for people who are interested in the Irish language and various Celtic languages to discuss them, to practice them, and to share information about them, particularly (but not exclusively) in the context of traditional music and culture.

This is not a "translation forum," per se, though translation requests may occasionally be honored at the discretion of the moderators. If you're seeking a one-time translation for something like a tattoo, engraving, wedding vow, or other such purpose, we strongly recommend that you visit our friends at ILF: http://irishlearner.awyr.com



Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 
 Post subject: Another Gaelic question
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 6:00 pm
Posts: 2706
Location: Wyoming
My kids are writing a song about the legendary Black Dog. Sometimes called the Grimm, and various other things.

How does one pronounce Choin Dubh?

Thanks!

_________________
Fall down six times. Stand up seven.


Top
 Profile  
 
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:55 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Oct 16, 2003 10:31 am
Posts: 7973
Location: Raleigh, NC
I'm thinking "Hone doov"
(The H is kinda phlemmy.)


Top
 Profile  
 
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:35 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 30, 2005 5:11 am
Posts: 2123
Location: Aberdeenshire, Scotland
Dunno about the first word but Dubh is usually pronounced doo in Scotland e.g. sgian dubh (skee-an doo)

_________________
http://www.causeymounth.com


Top
 Profile  
 
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 15, 2001 6:00 pm
Posts: 4714
Location: Eugene, OR
By Gaelic you mean Scots Gaelic, right?


Top
 Profile  
 
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 2:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:48 pm
Posts: 2464
Location: canned tuna-aisle 6
I would venture "GKHOO-in DOO".

Cu being dog, pluralized and aspirated

"GKH" being not quite as long as the 'ch' in "ach", as in: "Ach, yir no sober Jimmie."
I'd say "Owen do" & then add the 'ch'-of-'ach' in front of Owen

Cu , KOO
Cho, GKHOO: asp.
Choin, GKHOO-in: Pl + asp

It's a really formal way of saying it, to my thinking.
Dont know how the "o" in "cu" got there. I learned it cu, cho, cuin, chuin, etc.


Edited to say: in Scots Gaelic.


Last edited by CHasR on Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun May 23, 2004 2:04 pm
Posts: 6746
Location: North Lincolnshire, UK.
WyoBadger wrote:
My kids are writing a song about the legendary Black Dog. Sometimes called the Grimm, and various other things.

How does one pronounce Choin Dubh?

Thanks!


Tricky thing but I would pronounce Choin as somewhere between Kween and a cough on the first syllable...the first syllable of Quote could fit alongside the ween bit I suppose.

Where I come from Dubh rhymes with move..that bit's easy.

Slan,
D. :)

_________________
And many a poor man that has roved,
Loved and thought himself beloved,
From a glad kindness cannot take his eyes.

W.B.Yeats


Top
 Profile  
 
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 3:47 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 6051
Location: Somewhere in the Western Hemisphere
Wyo, it looks like what they have is an inflected form. It would be useful to know the entire context of the line, since normally "choin dubh" wouldn't exist as a "standalone"...at least in Irish.

To be honest, in Irish "choin" can't exist at all. It's either cú/an cú (nominative singular), con/an chon (genitive singular), cúnna/na cúnna (nominative plural) or con/na gcon (genitive plural). And if you're using the genitive form "con," the adjective has to inflect as well: "duibh."

It's also really important to know if we're speaking of Irish or Scottish Gaelic. The two languages are similar and related, but functionally different (think Spanish and Portuguese). I don't know about others here, but I have no Scottish Gaelic...only Irish. Normally, when one says "Gaelic" in English, one is speaking of Scottish Gaelic, whereas one uses "Irish" to refer to the language of Ireland.

I'm pretty damn good at Irish anymore (hovering on the brink of fluency), so if I can be of help at all, let me know.

Redwolf

_________________
...agus déanfaidh mé do mholadh ar an gcruit a Dhia, a Dhia liom!


Top
 Profile  
 
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 4:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jun 28, 2003 8:17 pm
Posts: 6759
Location: Limbo
dubhlinn wrote:
Where I come from Dubh rhymes with move..that bit's easy.


Dooooove just doesn't work, though, when we refer to you with the shortened version of your name...keeping the "haitch" at the end of course ;)

_________________
Someday, everything is gonna be diff'rent
When I paint my masterpiece.


Top
 Profile  
 
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:59 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 08, 2004 12:33 am
Posts: 5199
Location: Eastern Australia
Redwolf wrote:
......Normally, when one says "Gaelic" in English, one is speaking of Scottish Gaelic, whereas one uses "Irish" to refer to the language of Ireland.
.......


Unless one is in Ireland where they refer to a region where "Irish" is spoken a lot as "Gaeltacht".
Irish people I know who are natives of Ireland speak to me in English
and when they speak to me in English they refer to their mother tongue
as "Gaelic" and it isn't Scottish Gaelic I assure you.

_________________
qui jure suo utitur neminem laedit


Top
 Profile  
 
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:07 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:48 pm
Posts: 2464
Location: canned tuna-aisle 6
talasiga wrote:
Redwolf wrote:
......Normally, when one says "Gaelic" in English, one is speaking of Scottish Gaelic, whereas one uses "Irish" to refer to the language of Ireland.
.......


Unless one is in Ireland where they refer to a region where "Irish" is spoken a lot as "Gaeltacht".
Irish people I know who are natives of Ireland speak to me in English
and when they speak to me in English they refer to their mother tongue
as "Gaelic" and it isn't Scottish Gaelic I assure you.


Theres no sense in splitting this hair.
Let the topic starter clarify if the intention is Scots or Irish Gaelic.

And btw, why not talk them into doing a song on something thats not already been done by Led Zep , and has only one possible pronunciation? :boggle: :D


Top
 Profile  
 
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 6:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 6051
Location: Somewhere in the Western Hemisphere
chrisoff wrote:
Dunno about the first word but Dubh is usually pronounced doo in Scotland e.g. sgian dubh (skee-an doo)


In Ulster as well (Ulster Irish being the closest to Scottish Gaelic).

Casual usage aside (and I'm well aware that older native speakers, especially, use "Gaelic" to refer to the language of Ireland), if you go out to buy a learning method, a grammar, or a dictionary and choose one that says "Gaelic," it will be the language of Scotland you're getting (which is fine, if that's what you're looking for, but if it's Irish you're after, it can be a problem). The distinction is minor unless you're trying to get a translation into one language or the other, in which case it makes a huge difference. The Scots laid claim to "Gaelic," and we use "Irish." If you want to be ultra-careful, you can say "Irish Gaelic," but the fact still remains, you need to specify.

Redwolf

_________________
...agus déanfaidh mé do mholadh ar an gcruit a Dhia, a Dhia liom!


Top
 Profile  
 
 
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 6:14 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 7:55 pm
Posts: 6
Location: Dublin, Eire
talasiga wrote:
Redwolf wrote:
......Normally, when one says "Gaelic" in English, one is speaking of Scottish Gaelic, whereas one uses "Irish" to refer to the language of Ireland.
.......


Unless one is in Ireland where they refer to a region where "Irish" is spoken a lot as "Gaeltacht".
Irish people I know who are natives of Ireland speak to me in English
and when they speak to me in English they refer to their mother tongue
as "Gaelic" and it isn't Scottish Gaelic I assure you.

:boggle:
Both are right. The 'gaelic' word for the Irish and Scottish languages is Gaeilge. Most people do not know what Gaeilge is so the term 'gaelic' is used by both Irish and Scotish to mean Gaeilge even though some Irish people use the terms 'Irish' or Irish gaelic’ also and some Scottish say Scottish, 'Scottish gaelic' to indicate the dialect or type of Gaeilge he/she may be using and/or referring to.


Top
 Profile  
 
 
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 11:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 28, 2002 6:00 pm
Posts: 6051
Location: Somewhere in the Western Hemisphere
aisling_si wrote:
talasiga wrote:
Redwolf wrote:
......Normally, when one says "Gaelic" in English, one is speaking of Scottish Gaelic, whereas one uses "Irish" to refer to the language of Ireland.
.......


Unless one is in Ireland where they refer to a region where "Irish" is spoken a lot as "Gaeltacht".
Irish people I know who are natives of Ireland speak to me in English
and when they speak to me in English they refer to their mother tongue
as "Gaelic" and it isn't Scottish Gaelic I assure you.

:boggle:
Both are right. The 'gaelic' word for the Irish and Scottish languages is Gaeilge. Most people do not know what Gaeilge is so the term 'gaelic' is used by both Irish and Scotish to mean Gaeilge even though some Irish people use the terms 'Irish' or Irish gaelic’ also and some Scottish say Scottish, 'Scottish gaelic' to indicate the dialect or type of Gaeilge he/she may be using and/or referring to.


Actually, that's not quite true. The (Scottish) Gaelic name for the language of Scotland is "Gàidhlig." The Irish name for the language of Ireland is "An Ghaeilge," and the Irish term for the language of Scotland is "Gaeilge na hAlbain." They are considered different languages (along the lines of Spanish and Portuguese), not dialects of one another.

In any case, the fact remains that, if you go looking for dictionaries or learning methods for "Gaelic," it is Scottish Gaelic that you will get. That's the only real reason people belabor the point.

Redwolf

_________________
...agus déanfaidh mé do mholadh ar an gcruit a Dhia, a Dhia liom!


Top
 Profile  
 
 
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 5:39 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 7:55 pm
Posts: 6
Location: Dublin, Eire
Quote:
The Irish name for the language of Ireland is "An Ghaeilge," and the Irish term for the language of Scotland is "Gaeilge na hAlbain."


"Gaeilge na hAlbain." This just means the Gaeilge of the Scots

As for the def. articles, 'an' is just the singular article and 'na' is the plural.

I did not specify above because I left it generic

We could say while refering to the two gaelic languages "na Gaeilge".

i grew up in Dublin. My mother's family all spoke Irish Gaelic and they refer to it a gaelic amongst themselves.

Gaelic in an emic reference amongst Irish speakers for their own native language and for the other [etic] it is they who split hairs and make references exclusive.


Top
 Profile  
 
 
PostPosted: Sat May 30, 2009 6:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 7:55 pm
Posts: 6
Location: Dublin, Eire
Perhaps this has to do with the fact the Scots had a working relationship a part of the UK and were able to record in English and in books about their language at a time when Irish engagement with their own language would result in transportation to Australia as a convict or some such punishment.

That quirk of history does not give a default right for Gaelic to be interpreted as a prima face reference to Scottish. Books written in English do not prescribe or restrict references for a language. That rests on the speakers.

Slan


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  [ 18 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 6 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.188s | 11 Queries | GZIP : On ]
(dh)