Another Gaelic question

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Another Gaelic question

Post by WyoBadger »

My kids are writing a song about the legendary Black Dog. Sometimes called the Grimm, and various other things.

How does one pronounce Choin Dubh?

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Re: Another Gaelic question

Post by fearfaoin »

I'm thinking "Hone doov"
(The H is kinda phlemmy.)
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Re: Another Gaelic question

Post by chrisoff »

Dunno about the first word but Dubh is usually pronounced doo in Scotland e.g. sgian dubh (skee-an doo)
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Re: Another Gaelic question

Post by avanutria »

By Gaelic you mean Scots Gaelic, right?
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Re: Another Gaelic question

Post by CHasR »

I would venture "GKHOO-in DOO".

Cu being dog, pluralized and aspirated

"GKH" being not quite as long as the 'ch' in "ach", as in: "Ach, yir no sober Jimmie."
I'd say "Owen do" & then add the 'ch'-of-'ach' in front of Owen

Cu , KOO
Cho, GKHOO: asp.
Choin, GKHOO-in: Pl + asp

It's a really formal way of saying it, to my thinking.
Dont know how the "o" in "cu" got there. I learned it cu, cho, cuin, chuin, etc.


Edited to say: in Scots Gaelic.
Last edited by CHasR on Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another Gaelic question

Post by dubhlinn »

WyoBadger wrote:My kids are writing a song about the legendary Black Dog. Sometimes called the Grimm, and various other things.

How does one pronounce Choin Dubh?

Thanks!
Tricky thing but I would pronounce Choin as somewhere between Kween and a cough on the first syllable...the first syllable of Quote could fit alongside the ween bit I suppose.

Where I come from Dubh rhymes with move..that bit's easy.

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Re: Another Gaelic question

Post by Redwolf »

Wyo, it looks like what they have is an inflected form. It would be useful to know the entire context of the line, since normally "choin dubh" wouldn't exist as a "standalone"...at least in Irish.

To be honest, in Irish "choin" can't exist at all. It's either cú/an cú (nominative singular), con/an chon (genitive singular), cúnna/na cúnna (nominative plural) or con/na gcon (genitive plural). And if you're using the genitive form "con," the adjective has to inflect as well: "duibh."

It's also really important to know if we're speaking of Irish or Scottish Gaelic. The two languages are similar and related, but functionally different (think Spanish and Portuguese). I don't know about others here, but I have no Scottish Gaelic...only Irish. Normally, when one says "Gaelic" in English, one is speaking of Scottish Gaelic, whereas one uses "Irish" to refer to the language of Ireland.

I'm pretty damn good at Irish anymore (hovering on the brink of fluency), so if I can be of help at all, let me know.

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Re: Another Gaelic question

Post by izzarina »

dubhlinn wrote: Where I come from Dubh rhymes with move..that bit's easy.
Dooooove just doesn't work, though, when we refer to you with the shortened version of your name...keeping the "haitch" at the end of course ;)
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Re: Another Gaelic question

Post by talasiga »

Redwolf wrote:......Normally, when one says "Gaelic" in English, one is speaking of Scottish Gaelic, whereas one uses "Irish" to refer to the language of Ireland.
.......
Unless one is in Ireland where they refer to a region where "Irish" is spoken a lot as "Gaeltacht".
Irish people I know who are natives of Ireland speak to me in English
and when they speak to me in English they refer to their mother tongue
as "Gaelic" and it isn't Scottish Gaelic I assure you.
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Re: Another Gaelic question

Post by CHasR »

talasiga wrote:
Redwolf wrote:......Normally, when one says "Gaelic" in English, one is speaking of Scottish Gaelic, whereas one uses "Irish" to refer to the language of Ireland.
.......
Unless one is in Ireland where they refer to a region where "Irish" is spoken a lot as "Gaeltacht".
Irish people I know who are natives of Ireland speak to me in English
and when they speak to me in English they refer to their mother tongue
as "Gaelic" and it isn't Scottish Gaelic I assure you.
Theres no sense in splitting this hair.
Let the topic starter clarify if the intention is Scots or Irish Gaelic.

And btw, why not talk them into doing a song on something thats not already been done by Led Zep , and has only one possible pronunciation? :boggle: :D
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Re: Another Gaelic question

Post by Redwolf »

chrisoff wrote:Dunno about the first word but Dubh is usually pronounced doo in Scotland e.g. sgian dubh (skee-an doo)
In Ulster as well (Ulster Irish being the closest to Scottish Gaelic).

Casual usage aside (and I'm well aware that older native speakers, especially, use "Gaelic" to refer to the language of Ireland), if you go out to buy a learning method, a grammar, or a dictionary and choose one that says "Gaelic," it will be the language of Scotland you're getting (which is fine, if that's what you're looking for, but if it's Irish you're after, it can be a problem). The distinction is minor unless you're trying to get a translation into one language or the other, in which case it makes a huge difference. The Scots laid claim to "Gaelic," and we use "Irish." If you want to be ultra-careful, you can say "Irish Gaelic," but the fact still remains, you need to specify.

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Re: Another Gaelic question

Post by aisling_si »

talasiga wrote:
Redwolf wrote:......Normally, when one says "Gaelic" in English, one is speaking of Scottish Gaelic, whereas one uses "Irish" to refer to the language of Ireland.
.......
Unless one is in Ireland where they refer to a region where "Irish" is spoken a lot as "Gaeltacht".
Irish people I know who are natives of Ireland speak to me in English
and when they speak to me in English they refer to their mother tongue
as "Gaelic" and it isn't Scottish Gaelic I assure you.
:boggle:
Both are right. The 'gaelic' word for the Irish and Scottish languages is Gaeilge. Most people do not know what Gaeilge is so the term 'gaelic' is used by both Irish and Scotish to mean Gaeilge even though some Irish people use the terms 'Irish' or Irish gaelic’ also and some Scottish say Scottish, 'Scottish gaelic' to indicate the dialect or type of Gaeilge he/she may be using and/or referring to.
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Re: Another Gaelic question

Post by Redwolf »

aisling_si wrote:
talasiga wrote:
Redwolf wrote:......Normally, when one says "Gaelic" in English, one is speaking of Scottish Gaelic, whereas one uses "Irish" to refer to the language of Ireland.
.......
Unless one is in Ireland where they refer to a region where "Irish" is spoken a lot as "Gaeltacht".
Irish people I know who are natives of Ireland speak to me in English
and when they speak to me in English they refer to their mother tongue
as "Gaelic" and it isn't Scottish Gaelic I assure you.
:boggle:
Both are right. The 'gaelic' word for the Irish and Scottish languages is Gaeilge. Most people do not know what Gaeilge is so the term 'gaelic' is used by both Irish and Scotish to mean Gaeilge even though some Irish people use the terms 'Irish' or Irish gaelic’ also and some Scottish say Scottish, 'Scottish gaelic' to indicate the dialect or type of Gaeilge he/she may be using and/or referring to.
Actually, that's not quite true. The (Scottish) Gaelic name for the language of Scotland is "Gàidhlig." The Irish name for the language of Ireland is "An Ghaeilge," and the Irish term for the language of Scotland is "Gaeilge na hAlbain." They are considered different languages (along the lines of Spanish and Portuguese), not dialects of one another.

In any case, the fact remains that, if you go looking for dictionaries or learning methods for "Gaelic," it is Scottish Gaelic that you will get. That's the only real reason people belabor the point.

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Re: Another Gaelic question

Post by aisling_si »

The Irish name for the language of Ireland is "An Ghaeilge," and the Irish term for the language of Scotland is "Gaeilge na hAlbain."
"Gaeilge na hAlbain." This just means the Gaeilge of the Scots

As for the def. articles, 'an' is just the singular article and 'na' is the plural.

I did not specify above because I left it generic

We could say while refering to the two gaelic languages "na Gaeilge".

i grew up in Dublin. My mother's family all spoke Irish Gaelic and they refer to it a gaelic amongst themselves.

Gaelic in an emic reference amongst Irish speakers for their own native language and for the other [etic] it is they who split hairs and make references exclusive.
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Re: Another Gaelic question

Post by aisling_si »

Perhaps this has to do with the fact the Scots had a working relationship a part of the UK and were able to record in English and in books about their language at a time when Irish engagement with their own language would result in transportation to Australia as a convict or some such punishment.

That quirk of history does not give a default right for Gaelic to be interpreted as a prima face reference to Scottish. Books written in English do not prescribe or restrict references for a language. That rests on the speakers.

Slan
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