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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:40 am 
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That's all I can stan, cause I can't stan no more! :lol:

The flute may be from Regurgistan. Perhaps I should throw up this possibility for discussion on the flute forum?


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:24 am 
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Very good of you to alter the comment, which, of course,
was made in advance of the new policy.

I do think we may wish to be careful here--new policy
aside. There is a real possibility the flutes coming
from Pakistan, India, China, wherever, are going
to improve or in some cases have improved.
Also new makers may be appearing. A lot of
third world instrument making goes this way,
as in Japanese guitars awhile ago.

The sticky is painting with a wide brush,
it is going to influence newbies, chiefly,
and even if we qualify and say, as you
do, that some good ones are there now but
they aren't so cheap, the affect of the
'Beware of cheap ebay (Pakistani) flutes'
may be to vastly affect sales of flutes
that we may not have played and for all we know
are pretty good. A lot of people come through
these boards. We are in a position to do an
emerging industry and maybe some makers
of good flutes, real harm.

There is the possibility of real unfairness
and making it hard for good people to
make a go of it. And those people (and their workers)
are living
under not good economic conditions,

Also it is a bit strange typing flutes by country,
Pakistani. Again, too wide a brush.

A positive suggestion:

Retitle the thread:

Be Careful of Inexpensive E Bay flutes.

Then a first post that discusses the situation
in some detail.

Also we need to revisit the situation maybe once a year,
so that the thread can be revised if things change
for the better. Anyhow we should be alive to the
possibility that things are changing.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:01 pm 
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I was reticent to use the word Pakistani when originally requested to create the thread which is why it is in parenthesis.

As the bulk of the inferior flutes were, and seem to still be, coming from that country, as is common knowledge amongst many flute players, I am reluctant to change the thread title at the moment.

The term beware is a cautionary one not meant to be a blanket indictment.

It is hoped that people don't run screaming, cursing Pakistan, after only reading the thread title but also read the posts within and derive some understanding of the situation.

The 'tar brush', after all, came about because of the poor product. As to it's broadness...


I will think more on this when I have the free time.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 2:43 pm 
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Alan wrote:
As the bulk of the inferior flutes were, and seem to still be, coming from that country, as is common knowledge amongst many flute players, I am reluctant to change the thread title at the moment.


Oooh, breaking rule #1....


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:07 pm 
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The sticky on e bay flutes is gone, at least for now,
and i want to compliment everybody involved on their
integrity, cause that sure isn't a universal
feature of humanity. Obviously the thread
was entirely well motivated and served a real
purpose, and I'm glad we're rethinking the thing,
whatever we end up doing. I spent a lot
of time in that part of the world, including
some time in Pakistan and I want to tell you
these people are very real to me.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:53 pm 
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I got your rule #1 right here, Kevin... :evil:

(I hate it when he is right!)

I am removing the word Pakistani from the sticky title.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:20 pm 
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Some of you guys are really being a pain. We're trying. We can't please everybody.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:47 am 
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Must say, I'd be with Jim Stone on the issue re removing the Sticky on 'cheap Ebay - Pakistani' flutes. Let it sink into oblivion - people can find it if they search. Changing the title does little as the first few posts are littered with references to 'Pakistani' flutes. It's full of sweeping generalisations. It may be there as a warning to new players but it also serves to protect the incomes of western based flute makers and therefore acts to distort the market!!


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 1:11 am 
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Right, because a free market is a boon to all all the time, right, as we so clearly observe just now?

Without speaking directly about stickiness or not, it seems to me that this is in fact the sort of political correctness at the expense of wisdom.

We can, evidently slag Sam Murray all we like, some of us, in spite of the fact that he has turned out a great many superb flutes, on the grounds that someone's told us that maybe he's knocked out a few that have not been up to scratch.

On the other hand, in spite of the fact that I know of no identifiable maker of Pakistani flutes (individual maker's mark of some clear sort), so even if there is the odd good one floating around, there is no way of identifying one you are looking at as by the same maker, we ought not to warn people that they are in the vast majority of cases very bad for Irish music. It is simple and has nothing to do with the reality or not of the life of Pakistanis, who are a people that i've nothing against, (except that their flute makers have for quite a while been turning out flutes without identifying marks, most of which are useless for the type of music I wish to play, and that I cannot easily visit their makers to discuss what flute I might like, or how they might change a flute of theirs that I am dissatisfied with). If a Pakistani maker wants to make good flutes and set himself apart from other not good Pakistani makers, he should make his flutes identifiable - then we easily say that there is a very good Pakistani flute maker called so and so, but watch out for the rest of them.

In addition, I believe that we ought to support local makers, the quality of their flutes being good, when we have the opportunity, and that is what I mostly tell my students. Local craftsmen are a boon to their locality and to the musicians that they serve - suggesting that flutes from far away are poor, when they in fact are mostly poor and other than trying the one you are buying there is no way to tell about them, does not distort the market in the least. To the contrary, it portrays the market accurately.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:02 am 
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bepoq wrote:

We can, evidently slag Sam Murray all we like, some of us, in spite of the fact that he has turned out a great many superb flutes, on the grounds that someone's told us that maybe he's knocked out a few that have not been up to scratch.



You're entirely out of line. Show me some evidence that people on this board are allowed to slag Sam all they like.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 6:23 am 
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for a little perspective....

go check out some mobile-phone forums sometime. a disagreement on this board is a teaparty compared to some of the dustups I've seen elsewhere.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:22 am 
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I'm not sure about entirely Dale - out of line might be true, I'm not sure and am now trying to think about it, although the point that I'm trying to make I think remains. I was referring to the thread the other day (within a week or two anyway) in which Jim had a go at Sam for the quality of his recent flutes, and someone else hopped on to also deride his delivery practices in spite of the fact that the thread was not at all about that (I make no comment on whether either were deserved here) and a few others piled on. If you mean that various people objected (including me) so that balances it all out or something (don't know quite how to put this), I see what you mean, but I'm not sure how much better it makes it. If you are taking slag to mean untruthful insult with no basis is fact, that is not how I understand the word (and I'm from Liverpool where it has regular use if you get me) (though I would see what you mean).

People have consistently attacked Sam Murray on here since I've been a member of the board - questioning his honesty (saying they've called the police) and his delivery and now his flutes (with more about his delivery etc.). I don't want to go back and find all the examples, but I've no reason to make this up - I don't know him personally at all (and I'm not arguing that he's done himself any favours). My point here though is not that we ought never to say bad things about Sam Murray, it is that we ought to be allowed to say bad things about a large category of flutes that have been demonstrably and consistently bad in almost everyone's experience for a long time, even though there is the occasional decent one, unless those decent ones begin to come with a way to identify them. At this time, I would still counsel any one I know to avoid flutes made in Pakistan, unless they have played the particular one and are of enough experience and ability to judge it (ie not ebay or over the web), and will continue to do so until such time as I begin to come across a preponderance of them that are good flutes, not until I've found the occasional one. I would say the same about certain individual makers here in the west, but, again, their flutes we can identify (mostly), so the issue is different.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 10:22 am 
There's certainly an impression that it's a free for all when it comes to Sam Murray. I realise some of this is due to the moderators not being able to see everything going on here but I have seen the piping forum shut down and threatened with permanent closure for remarks far less serious and with more substance than what some seem to get away with about Sam Murray.

I did think it was particularly bad form that Jim was mouthing off about a flute he hadn't played but only had second hand information about from unnamed sources, that he refused to respond when called to reveal his sources and the nature of 'the issues' he mentioned. The statement he had 'a relation with it' because he wanted to buy it at some point was too preposterous for words.

Even after a former owner of the flute, confirmed the flute in question was a fine one, which he has stressed over the years and it is well known that he only sold it because of allergy problems, Jim didn't see reason to retract his statements. What Jim presented was nothing more than nudge nudge wink wink say no more hear-say and insinuation without any form of substance. Image

It must also be said that the latest shouting match about Sam, including the notification of the Gardai Siochana, was a total shambles and a screw up of the poster. The flute in question had been sent to him at the time he posted his thread.

I don't know Sam other than dealing with him a year ago. The flute I got was fine, I am very happy with it, it was delivered within two weeks of the date predicted on ordering and collecting it at the workshop I had a pleasant chat with Sam. I found nothing to dislike or to be anxious about.

If there have been glitches, I don't expect them to be any worse than what I have heard about many other makers of flutes and pipes over the years.

I have been to Galway recently and they are all nice people there, if you get my drift.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 4:18 pm 
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Long story short, it appears that there indeed are "cheap" flutes out there, for sale, and here I have the interest of the beginner, and of the less well informed, in mind.

And, I believe some warning is legitimate.

So, perhaps let the "Pakistani" distinction fade into C&F history, but perhaps substitute a generic warning, and I'll let the membership get to the details about that.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2008 5:17 pm 
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Regarding Pakistan made instruments, at risk of being booted off the Uilleann pipe forum I play a set of Pakistan made pipes, to be fair I have extensively reworked them and they do work now really well.
As to the remark that regarding supporting terrorism; of course they do; that has ever been the role of the pipes, they are a subtle tool of psychological terrorism; they terrorise neighbours, they terrorise the player; just occasionally when all works well, they have been known to terrorise an audience.


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