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 Post subject: Re: quena chin?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 01, 2012 11:59 am 
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Big_e wrote:
That's the strangest thing. Maybe the edge of the mouthpiece has a barely noticeable abrasive surface which is causing the irritaton? Can it be buffed down a bit?


Hmm; possible. I can try sanding it smoother.

At this point I'm almost afraid to try any of my quenas/quenillas :(


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 Post subject: Re: quena chin?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 5:07 pm 
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Greg...if you sand it, you will alter the blowing angle and increase turbulence.

If yours is lacquered, the chemicals or if, it, is insect based lacquer will be sufficient as an irritant. You.d best try some antihistamine and stop in case your mouth/tongue swells and blocks the airway, since you are describing an anaphylactic contact allergy reaction.

You can drip hot wax over the opposite end of the notch where it contacts the chin, and cut around it neatly once it has hardened. Or adhere a strip of elastoplast across it so that it does not actually
touch your skin.

I use a Francois de Villiers plastic modern quena....no such problems. Octave wise....yes...I still only get two octaves and a note.


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 Post subject: Re: quena chin?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:24 pm 
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gregwhistle wrote:
Big_e wrote:
That's the strangest thing. Maybe the edge of the mouthpiece has a barely noticeable abrasive surface which is causing the irritaton? Can it be buffed down a bit?


Hmm; possible. I can try sanding it smoother.

At this point I'm almost afraid to try any of my quenas/quenillas :(


I'd ignore the advice above and sand it with a very fine grit sandpaper. I've built hundreds of quena at this point and it's extremely important that it be smooth. I would not advise sanding near the embouchure though, that is a delicate procedure. Out of curiosity, how much pressure are you using to hold the quena to your bottom lip? It sounds like you are using too much pressure and it's causing irritation because of that. Any chance you can send me a video sometime? I might be able to help you out on skype and see what the heck is causing the irritation. I highly doubt it's from the material, it's from roughness or too much pressure.
One option to fix the pressure issue is to create a small backwards slope on the quena. Meaning, from the embouchure side it will slope done to the back, only by a few millimeters. If you think that may be the problem I could easily modify your quena this way.


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 Post subject: Re: quena chin?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:28 am 
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Gaiteiro, a while back you were selling a batch of cheap quenas. Do you still have any of them? Are they playable or souvenir grade? I have a couple of good quenas and was looking for a "beater axe" that I wouldn't mind taking around with me to practice at the lake or work and such.

I bought a quena from the flutemaker, http://www.quenaflutemaker.com/index.php , that is great quena and easy to play!
Ernest

PS: I'm looking to try out the other sizes such as quenilla and quenacho soon.

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 Post subject: Re: quena chin?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:17 am 
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O_Gaiteiro_do_Chicago wrote:
Out of curiosity, how much pressure are you using to hold the quena to your bottom lip? It sounds like you are using too much pressure and it's causing irritation because of that.


I probably have been using quite a bit of pressure, to seal it.


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 Post subject: Re: quena chin?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2012 3:28 pm 
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I would just add that the nature of the irritation might tell you something. If it's red-to-purplish, burning especially upon contact, seems to be getting only worse with every contact, and is becoming blistery and weeping, odds in my book are for a contact allergy not unlike any other fluter's allergy to Dalbergia or other woods from members of the legumes, which in fact would appear to be such a wood your quena in question is made of, gregwhistle.

Just something to keep in mind, from someone who knows a bit about that firsthand.

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 Post subject: Re: quena chin?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:16 am 
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Well, experiment #3 is complete. Grr.

So, results so far.

(unintentional) Experiment #1 - playing a variety of pvc quenas and a wood quena

After a couple of months playing intermittently with no issues, suddenly an irritated red U on skin develops overnight afterward


-wait to heal-


Experiment #2 - play a few bars on a single PVC quenilla

irritated red U on skin develops overnight afterward


-wait to heal-


Experiment #3 - play a few bars on a single professionally made wood quena

irritated red U on skin develops overnight afterward


Getting hard to conclude anything other than that the physical act of playing quena is causing it? :(


Meanwhile, no problems at all with whistles or traverse flute, of any material.


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 Post subject: Re: quena chin?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:17 pm 
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That doesn't sound good at all. I'd be heartbroken if I couldn't play my quenas. That's strange that both the wooden and pvc is causing an irritation.
Ernest

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 Post subject: Re: quena chin?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:47 pm 
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Big_e wrote:
That doesn't sound good at all. I'd be heartbroken if I couldn't play my quenas.


I am :( I was really enjoying playing quena.


Big_e wrote:
That's strange that both the wooden and pvc is causing an irritation.
Ernest


It is strange. I don't think I'm pressing especially hard, either - and I made a point of not doing so in experiment #3. Just enough to seal it so it will sound.


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 Post subject: Re: quena chin?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 14, 2012 3:01 pm 
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Time for hypo allergenic laquer?
http://www.acehardwareoutlet.com/Produc ... 2130008102
Should be availible in many places, and at less then 10 bucks it might be worth a try.

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 Post subject: Re: quena chin?
PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2012 10:58 pm 
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Ok, I'm going to say a few things that might seem out there. However, their is a very good basis for them although I won't go into much detail as it would take a book. I am trained in various different healing modalities and I am trained to work with food and environmental allergies. For some years there have been more advanced treatments for both of them. The first one was someting called NAET. However since their have been many more effective treatments usually applied acupuncturists, chiropractors and nutritionists.

If you have a sensitivity to any of the materials including the paint, plastic, lacquer etc... you should be able to get an irritation no matter if you put it on your lips or touch it to another place on your body. So just for the heck of it, find a place you don't mind getting a rash and put your flute on it. Your stomach, arms, where ever. However, likely a sensitivity might not be the problem. Do your hands get red or itchy? I can't eliminate that possibility especially since I can't test you online to the different toxins. However, likely your transverse flutes have lacquer. correct? And you use fipples made from plastic? Correct. And you said it happens whether or use plastic or wood? Correct. Not a strong case for a substance sensitivity if those same elements are on your other flutes.

The second option, that area and likely other area's on your body are sensitive? Do you bruise easily? Are you fair skin or is your skin sensitive to other things? Do you have veins close to the surface? When you get bumped, slapped, sunlight etc? And I don't remember this question being asked, are you playing the thing correctly? Are you using too much pressure? If you can play two octaves easily, you are probably relying on air and not pressure.

Now the other possibilities go down a rabbit hole that nobody has touched on and if I'd have to write a book to explain it here. Which I am not. So instead of going into it I'll ask you a few questions and you can choose to answer or not here. Yup they are strange and might seem totally unrelated to your problem. But since you still have the problem, you have nothing to loose and you can keep the answers to yourself.


Do you play any other rim flutes besides quena?
How did you find out about the quena and was it an instant attraction?
Are there any cultures that you are interested in besides your own?
What is your ethnic background?
Do you have any other mysteries body pains, rashes, twitches that are unexplained?

If you want to PM me the answers that will be fine. I'm not diagnosing you, I'm just opening some other doors that you can investigate that you wouldn't ordinarily be aware of.

Even without answering these questions, I'm going to ask you to do something even stranger. Go buy one of those small sticky reminder pads. And take one, and write quena on it. I want you to take that sticky and tape it on your chin for at least an hour when you are just sitting at the computer or watching tv. Observe that area before and then afterwards. You can repeat the experiment using the words "lacquer" "paint" "Plastic" "pressure" and notice what you notice. I told you it was strange.

Ok that's enough for now but it gets you started looking at some different things. With something like this you have to put on your sherlock holmes hat and think about of the box.


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 Post subject: Re: quena chin?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:29 am 
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Hmm ... those are unusual questions :o :D

To the more conventional questions ... yeah, I don't see it being a contact allergy either. The very different materials causing the same result, and the fact that no other part of my body seems to be sensitive to them, would seem to point away from that.


Quote:
The second option, that area and likely other area's on your body are sensitive? Do you bruise easily? Are you fair skin or is your skin sensitive to other things? Do you have veins close to the surface? When you get bumped, slapped, sunlight etc?


I don't bruise particularly easily or have unusual skin problems. I am very fair skinned, though given that, not as sensitive to the sun as you'd expect.


Quote:
And I don't remember this question being asked, are you playing the thing correctly? Are you using too much pressure? If you can play two octaves easily, you are probably relying on air and not pressure.


I can play two octaves pretty easily. I don't think I'm using too much pressure - paid attention to it once this started happening, and it's hard to see how I could use any less and still get sound.


Now to the weird ones :lol: Though its hard to see why I would develop psychosomatic symptoms only after a couple of months ...

Do you play any other rim flutes besides quena?

No - I've thought about trying some, but at the moment that doesn't seem terribly cost effective, given the situation :)


How did you find out about the quena and was it an instant attraction?

Don't remember exactly. Yeah, it looked interesting, and at least theoretically, easy to make.

Tried it, and I love the sound and how responsive it is.


Are there any cultures that you are interested in besides your own?

Sure, always been interested in current and past cultures of the world.


What is your ethnic background?

Northern European.


Do you have any other mysteries body pains, rashes, twitches that are unexplained?

No.


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 Post subject: Re: quena chin?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:32 am 
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Ya know ... my dentist got enthusiastic about me doing daily at-home fluoride treatment right before this started.

While it isn't causing a problem by itself, I wonder if it "sensitized" the skin in that area? The timing would be right.

As long as we're considering the outliers when it comes to possibilities :D


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 Post subject: Re: quena chin?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 10:31 am 
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Ok, the question methodology isn't going to work. I need you to be more specific and a public forum isn't the place for it. I you have ever been to a Chinese doctor who does acupuncture, the questions can get pretty weird from the nature of your dreaming to your urinating habits and then most people pretty much ignore the questions because they are like what the hell does this have to do with my neck pain. usually more than most people can figure out without any kind of training in any type of alternative medicine. If you were in person, I could diagnose the problem in a couple of minutes. Resolution might take a couple of sessions depending on what we found.

So, if you are game, you can play my other little game with the slips of paper and putting the quena someplace touching another body part just to eliminate any sensitivity. The thing with hypo allergenic is there really is no such thing. Ok, there are toxic substances and non-toxic substances but people can be allergic to ANYTHING. Carrots, brocolli, your little sister.

If it all seems too ridiculous to even try, no problem. However people pay good money to ask them to do ridiculous things because when they leave they are either not depressed, no more allergic reactions or body pains. I can trigger somebodies allergy without the offending substance if you understand the mechanism of allergic reactions. Obviously, you don't know me from Adam but I thought I'd do a good deed and throw out some of the "outliers" However, they aren't really "outliers" simply because it's simply these type of things are outside of the perview of the establishment but those who know, these type of things are very routine.

If you decide to play, report back. You need somebody who knows how to a form of muscle testing or kinesiology which you can generally find around in different healing professions. It's all going to depend how badly you want to play quena.


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 Post subject: Re: quena chin?
PostPosted: Wed Mar 21, 2012 12:23 pm 
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hidancity wrote:
Ok, the question methodology isn't going to work. I need you to be more specific and a public forum isn't the place for it. I you have ever been to a Chinese doctor who does acupuncture, the questions can get pretty weird from the nature of your dreaming to your urinating habits and then most people pretty much ignore the questions because they are like what the hell does this have to do with my neck pain. usually more than most people can figure out without any kind of training in any type of alternative medicine. If you were in person, I could diagnose the problem in a couple of minutes. Resolution might take a couple of sessions depending on what we found.

And so long as we're moving toward attempting actual diagnosis, let's all of us keep it to personal consultations outside of the forums, please. Emails, PMs, or - preferably - visits to doctors in the 3D only. You know, C&F policy and all that. We have liability to consider.

Please remember that medical discussion about complaints is only forum-allowable in such a wise:

Q: My left (upper) hand hurts when I play flute.
A: Have you tried changing your grip? Cold compresses? Those have worked for me.
or
A: I suggest you see a specialist.


This type of iteration is generally not forum-allowable:

Q: My left (upper) hand hurts when I play flute.
A: I think you have [X-itis]. Tell me more.
or
A: You should go with vitamin therapy/positive thinking/Viagra/prayer/booze/ignoring it.

It's not always easy to determine what's best not posted, but the main rule of thumb is to keep complaints restricted to the playing-related, and recommendations to primarily the most basic and practical First Aid level, or instrument-related technical how-to advice, nothing more. Pointing to possibilities like contact allergy is admittedly in a grey area, as a number of people, particularly fluteplayers, have it. I do myself. But suggesting such a possibility is not quite the same as diagnosis, and ways to ameliorate that particular condition - if that's what it actually is - are already well-known, basically simple, and don't require actual medical treatment: stop playing, or use tape, or grow a beard, or get a different flute made of less allergenic qualities, because it's also well known that contact allergy - IF that's what it is - doesn't abate in the long term any other way than by simply avoiding contact with aggravating materials. This of course is only an example, if a pertinent one. And remember that seeking or giving on-line public diagnosis and prescription here, beyond such aforementioned guidelines and simplicities, is completely forbidden. If you know or are yourself a specialist, contact the subject privately if you feel you must, but this not being a medical site, even that could be playing it a bit fast and loose for administrative liking. Nevertheless, the PM is a way around this, because then it's behind the scenes, out of our hands, and only between the immediate parties concerned - for better or worse. Note that we don't encourage it; we only suggest with some reservation. As for me personally, I would hope Chiffers even avoid such PMs here out of good community spirit, and instead go with email.

Thanks.

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