Dizi same fingering as whistle? (or close?)

[dspmusik]

i just saw this PDF on the world/folk wind page. looks similar (same?) as whistle. i'm interested in anyone who has experience with both.
....and of course that will probably lead to buying one... so where's a good place to start (1st Dizi, not whistle)
thanks!
http://www.ronkorb.com/pdfs/chinese.pdf

[dspmusik]

...or Xiao for that matter.
here's another chart i found:
http://www.s-o-n.net/xiao_fing_6.htm

[James_Alto]

i just saw this PDF on the world/folk wind page. looks similar (same?) as whistle. i'm interested in anyone who has experience with both.
....and of course that will probably lead to buying one... so where's a good place to start (1st Dizi, not whistle)
thanks!
http://www.ronkorb.com/pdfs/chinese.pdf

Since last autumn, the dizi has probably taken over all other flutes I have .. it is the flute I play the most now (I have over 10 dizi!)

Ron's fingering scales are an approximation: they will do, and you will get approximate tones at the higher 1/3 of the scale. He has left out the other 1/2 octave fingerings - maybe because he is trying to approximate a western fingering method onto the dizi. You won't have any trouble (except with the D'' quoted).

If you're interested - you can find out more on the http://starvoid.proboards.com/ forum which I post under. It is not very active, but it is the better English based language resource on the net, for understanding and playing the dizi.

If you need help buying a dizi, don't whatever you do order one of those cheap no hopers from the auction site. There are some good products there - but you have to know the suppliers, and the manufacturers, just like for Irish whistles.

If you want a no hassle start, find a 'D key' dizi. A 'D' dizi, plays the note 'D' when three fingers are down. Its lowest note is 'A'. You can play it (out of key) and use Irish music - as long as you are doing solo playing, you don't have to be worry about playing in the wrong key. It will still run D E F# G A B C across the holes so you can play treble clef notation, or improvise or play by ear. The proper way, is to learn 'jian pu' which is simplified notation using numbers. It shouldn't take long to learn.

I used to play whistles: the dizi is much harder: you need to learn the embouchure skills, and di mo (membrane) management. The decorations are very different across the different schools - just like ITM. I don't get it, so I just make it up and hope I don't bump into an expert who will tell me I play sh** lol. The dizi is best for its own repertoire, but you can use it for ITM....it sounds really unusual lol.

I wouldn't recommend anything more than a 6 hole dizi flute to start off with. I use both 6 and 7 holers - the 7 holer is much slower. Keyed dizi flutes are a waste of space - avoid at all costs. There is a lot more bending of notes in dizi music, as well as fast trills, and the decorations really require an open hole flute.

As for xiao flutes - which type are you looking for?

The xiao flute fingering is quite intuitive if you can play any 6 hole instrument. A 6 hole xiao, might have 5 holes in front, and one in the rear. A 7 hole xiao, would have two semi-tone notes spread over two wholes, so effectively, enables you to play a minor as well as a major scale without half-holing.

The xiao technique of embouchure is very similar to other notched flutes.

If you're interested, Francois de Villiers has made some xiao flutes out of plastic. I've promised to (get my act together) and a review of it. I'm struggling a bit, because I have only picked up the xiao in the past 1/2 year and I am not a natural xiao player either.

If you're interested, start off with a dizi flute first. There are plenty of websites for free dizi music, but you will need to learn the simplified notation. If you need a quality dizi, the musician who does the flute music for Kung Fu Panda II, also runs his own shop in an artists' group in California. He sources some of the famous Wang dizi flutes. He is a musician too, and he tests each instrument and won't sell you a lemon.


The fingering o

[lament]

Xiao is so hard to make a sound with, or at least mine is

[James_Alto]

What kind of xiao do you have?


Playing like this should be possible in about 3 weeks:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4-pjlgQhcqc




You may need to try a few, and then learn the xiao technique of embouchure. I'm still having to fudge my way around a few ...

[dspmusik]

Super helpful, thanks for the great info! Not sure what I'll stat with, but I'll continue to research and see what I can find to make an informed decision.
I've always been into Eastern music, so combining my love for that with a familiar fingering system seemed like a no-brainer!

[James_Alto]

You'll be alright with a dizi given your whistle background.

I came from a Boehm flute background - this is a nightmare for trying out eastern music. I tried to get around it by picking up some Eastern scores in classical sheet music notation. Jonathan Stock's classic, transcribes 'Purple Bamboo Melody' from the simplified musical notation. The problem is, there is so little (authentic) eastern literature available transcribed, that it's easier to learn simplified musical notation, and pick up musical scores that way.

If you're into playing by ear, I find it very intuitive on any 6 hole flute/whistle. If you know what kind of music you like, then find a dizi to fit the repertoire.

I love this piece. It's not quite the eastern equivalent of an Irish air - its emotional intensity spans everything in the flowering of a season:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPT9vtGw ... re=related

It's really annoying not having Googlechrome on a mac to do all my translations too

[dspmusik]

so between dizi and xiao, dizi has an easier embouchure?
i do not have any flute experience, and didn't know how different the xiao notch blowing is than side blown flutes.

[James_Alto]

Yes I suppose so.

Unless you have a tutor for the xiao flute perhaps.

If you're learning by yourself, it's going to be hard work. The dizi flute is an aerophone - you have a standard circular oval hole to turn the air to strike the edge of the hole to make a sound.

The xiao is a notch flute - the notch variation is tremendous, and you have to pitch the angle of the xiao correct with more precision. I've never met a xiao player who couldn't play a dizi flute. Plenty of dizi flutists can't play xiao. Generally, the xiao is considered a more elegant and more refined instrument: it is softer, gentler, and has complex and rich overtones in its lilting sound: it plays a different repertoire of music (southern melancholic regional music, as opposed to the branches of dizi flute music, which span the northern, southern and eastern school styles. The northern style is very staccato and punchy: this style is impossible to play on the xiao flute, since it would break up the embouchure. The dizi flute is considered more common, and indeed is the most popular flute across China. Its tone, unlike the xiao, is dependent on the usual factors, and the di mo membrane - which generates its lively bounce in its tone.

Bear in mind, the average xiao is listed in the equivalent western key of C or D: which translates to an 80cm vertical flute, If you are leprechaun sized, it might be problematic. Equally, you have to use pipers grip with the xiao. It is a long and elegant flute which can only be swayed when played. The only way around this lengthy conundrum, is to go for a root xiao - this is the forebearer of what we know today as the Japanese shakuhachi. The advantage of a root xiao flute, is that the fingering is very similar to the pennywhistle for scales, and is not stuck in some weirdo shak minor Ab(b)(b)(b)flat key.

The dizi, can be as short as a piccolo, or as long as a double bass concert flute. The standard western equivalent is a key of A (about 40-50cm). You can use the pads of your fingers to play. The embouchure can be very free blowing, which for a cylindrical flute, also generates a very loud response for the volume of air. It is loud and dynamic, and very reactive to changes in airstream pressure and volume: but less refined than the softer and slower xiao flute.

If you transcribe your fingerings for dizi or xiao, you will find, that you can actually play Irish jigs and reels on them lol.

Hope that helps - you know what sort of music you like, you can make a choice. I'd say if you liked playing ITM like you're in the 100metre heats, go for a dizi. If you like slow airs, go for a xiao. Be prepared to give up when you find it hard going

[MTGuru]

The dizi flute is an aerophone - you have a standard circular oval hole to turn the air to strike the edge of the hole to make a sound.

Because you've used the term several times, and because I'm a bloody pedant ...

The term aerophone is part of the scheme that classifies instruments according to the sound-producing element. Other categories are chordophone, membranophone, idiophone, and now electrophone.

So any instrument that uses vibrating air to drive its sound is an aerophone. Yes, that includes transverse flutes like a dizi. But also fipple flutes, beer bottles (Helmholtz resonators), sirens, etc. The term doesn't actually differentiate an embouchure hole edge from a fipple blade, which is how I think you've been using it.

Now I'm going to go and pedantically contemplate why most people, myself included, are too embarrassed to call a fipple blade a labium.

[benhall.1]

'Sfunny, until you just said, I had no idea that sirens were aerophones. I honestly thought they made their basic sound with something like friction. I've looked 'em up now. I get how they work. Clever. Wonder who thought of that?


... Ah. John Robison. A Scot. I should have known.

[dspmusik]

one concern i had about 6 hole dizi is that it seems that there are 5 on the front, 1 on the back (as opposed to 6 inline like a whistle).
the fingering looked similar to whistle, but not using L3, yes?

[James_Alto]

When I grow up, I want to be a moderator like MTGuru and make distinctions about aerophones lol.

Yes - I do use the term 'aerophone' to describe the flute and instruments which have no evident reed, lip, notch. It's just the way I learnt to classify them when I was a kid. It's probably the wrong way, but in practice, there's a good distinction between separating out an instrument like a aerophone flute, from a notched xiao, or a fippled whistle! Me and my simplicity


My simplicity and I, rather!

Hi dsp -

that's not a dizi you're looking at then.

All dizi flutes, will have the 6 in line holes like a standard penny whistle with no rear left thumb hole.

The only variations of the dizi you'll see, are 7, 8, or even rarer 9 hole variations. Off-set holes are unusual, as this
will affect the tonal consistency or voicing of the instrument.

The xiao flute, (vertical rim blown notch flute) does have 5 in front, and 1 rear thumb hole.

The fingering is nearly identical to the penny whistle in the first 2 octaves. In practice, you can get away with it. The F# note fingering in a D penny whistle is exactly the same for the D key dizi flute.

L3 is unusual: you'll find most instruments vary in the third octave.

If you're getting a dizi, you should start with a 6 inline hole instrument. Anything else, is a Frankenflute or a mish-mash between different parts/ideas.

[dspmusik]

good to know! that's what i originally hoped/thought, but i did find a vid with only 2 LH fingers; like you said, probably some variation.
how do you feel about eason music?

[MTGuru]

When I grow up, I want to be a moderator like MTGuru

But if you want to be a moderator, you have to skip the growing up thing.

There's a pretty good outline of the Hornbostel-Sachs scheme on Wiki:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hornbostel-Sachs