Bass recorder recommendation - >2 octaves

[James_Alto]

My bass recorder looks like it is going/gone kaputt. Right not it's not in my hands and I'll have to find out if it is repairable - it's not just one problem, but basically over 10 years of use.

I'm looking for a new recorder - I've been discovering some shocking surprises.

One reason why I stopped playing recorder and switched to flute - was because a lot of music could not be played on the recorder due to its narrow 2 octave range, whereas on a flute, I can get at least 3 1/2 octaves +.

I've seen some Moeck tenor recorders which can span 3 octaves. Unfortunately manufacturers don't publish data, like 'octave ranges' for their bass recorders.

Has anyone any experience? Ideally I would like 2 1/2 octaves on a bass recorder.

Thoughts?

[Tim2723]

I have to say that I can't even get a full two octaves out of a bass, so I'm probably not qualified to speak to it. I just really hate seeing a post go days without at least someone replying. I have read that accomplished players have great results with the top-end Yamaha basses and a number of groups use them. I just bought an Aulos bass. I can say that it's LOUD, if that means anything.

I can only assume that a tin whistle forum isn't the most active place to ask about bass recorders.

[James_Alto]

Thanks Tim -

out of curiosity, what made you go for the Allos recorder? They are very loud! I haven't tried the Japanese Yamahas, but the Suzuki descants were very loud, although maybe not quite as warm as their German competitors.

They're great recorders - my second school one was an Allos recorder and it is very smooth, however lacks overtones and the natural characteristics of the huskier or darker woody sound. It's just that it's as expensive as a second-hand wooden one (I know I know ....with cracks in the head...broken keys...splits down the body ...just like mine!)

I wonder if you have an alternative fingering chart for the Allos bass recorder - I find it easier to play on wooden recorders with bocals. The knick style really aren't my thing. Not only are they bulky and odd shaped to look at, but I find them really hard to hold. With a swinging bocal - I can just manouevre into position like a bassoon.

Anyhow - I wrote to Mollenhauer to ask about the octave range of their Denner Bass range. They aren't cheap, but they sound incredibly rich. The Moecks are cheaper, but again, it looks like the octave range is only 2 octaves + 1 note. Seems like the later designs, have increased the octave span dramatically. When I learnt on the treble recorder, we were taught up to 2 octaves only. I'm amazed that they can do 3 octaves + some now.

[Tim2723]

When I mentioned Yamaha, I was referring to their pro line of wooden recorders. They make some nice stuff. I went with the Aulos because I wanted a resin instrument, and I just like the Aulos a little better than the Yamaha plastics personally. I don't play seriously and don't want the maintenance of wood. Plus, like you say, the only wood you can get for the price will be in sorry shape. The Aulos can come out of the box and play. No break in, no oiling, no cracks, corks, splits, etc, to deal with. It can go back in the box and sit for weeks while I tinker with something else. You can Christmas carol with them in a snow storm and not worry, and if they go kaput in a decade it's only a $35 per year investment. What's that, a nice lunch once a year? Resin has everything going for it except the perfect tone. But with a bass I can forgive that for the sake of being heard. They are really loud. Some very nice sounding basses are so soft they're lost in the mix. And it's not that they sound bad, but they just don't have all the deep, rich overtones of fine wood. But then again, some of the $700-$800 wood basses aren't all that complex sounding either.

I don't have an alternate chart, sorry. BTW, the new model Aulos bass has an S bocal, the kind that comes out of the top of the windcap then curves down and out like a bassoon. It also has a direct-blow option with an add-on cap for a few bucks more but I can't play that with my stumpy arms, LOL! The older model had the straight bocal that fits into the side of the cap and tilts down (don't like those). They also make a Knick style, but I never liked the look of those either. Here's the one I bought. It's really a lot of recorder for the money. Well, at least it's a honkin' big chunk of plastic, LOL!

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/ ... sku=584526

Anyway, good luck with your efforts!

[James_Alto]

Hi Tim,

Wow. I wish you'd posted this earlier. I (foolishly) bought a secondhand plastic bass recorder to tide me through the likely months of absence of my bass recorder as it's being repaired. Forget tenor - I can live without tenor these days. My secondhand plastic one hasn't arrived yet, but it's about 1/2 price of the Aulos one you've linked. Even that - is 1/2 the price of what my country charges for the same Aulos. Had i known, I would've ordered a new Aulos rather than mess around with more second hand ones....

The Aulos sounds like it fits with your ethos perfect. I'm used to wooden flutes and instruments, and I do take care of mine and oil them regularly. I've never had a plastic instrument break on me - yet. It's the wooden ones.

But I do love a deep rich dark tone. I prefer lower octave flutes and whistles and recorders. It's mental looking at how much extra they cost, but the pleasure from just sounding a note or a few phrases is priceless. I'm not into playing music for a living either, but by gum, if I was to busk, I'd bring a plastic bass recorder out all weather!

I like the idea of two blow options with the Aulos. I can manage direct blow, but I don't like the weight strain that results. I like to hold my bass recorder like a saxophone lol. You can't do that without a bocal

Amazing how 'trendy' the knick basses are. I can't bear the look of these.

Btw - are you playing baroque on yours, or have you more modern music for your bass?

I'd love to discover more for the narrow 2 octave range

Thanks for all your help. I've decided all the other recorders can be cleared from my shelf and only the bass recorders will stay

[Tim2723]

Oh, that is a shame that you could have gotten a new one so easily. I always prefer new wind instruments. I'm very paranoid about anything used that you blow into.

I know just what you mean about the wonderful sound of a good wooden one. My descants, treble, and tenor are fairly nice instruments, but not too valuable. I can't afford a wooden bass that I like. When I was at school I played a wooden bass, but it was an inexpensive student model. I think it was a Zenon. It didn't sound that much better than a plastic one though. I think you probably have to buy a very good (and expensive) instrument before you get the top tone.

The narrow range never bothered me. To be honest, I could never get the highest register anyway, as I'm not that good a player. But I play mostly folk songs, hymns, and Christmas carols. Anything that can be sung can fit on a recorder, as the voice has a narrow range also. When I was younger I fooled around at the Renaissance fair, but that's another place I wouldn't want to risk a valuable instrument. I like the plastic ones for outdoor use. Not only are they nearly indestructible, but they are so much louder. It's like those Susato plastic whistles that can scream in a session. I especially like these when playing Christmas carols. It's not a great concert, it's more like four drunken old fools staggering from door to door begging for whiskey!

Again, I wish you the best of luck with your repairs and with your new recorder.

[James_Alto]

Oh, that is a shame that you could have gotten a new one so easily. I always prefer new wind instruments. I'm very paranoid about anything used that you blow into.

So am I ... but bass recorders are okay I think. You just sterilise the bocal

Wow - I've never heard of a Zenon - those must be ancient. What was it like for you when Queen Victoria was alive

I really like the sound of the Mollenhauers. They took over Roessler - the make of my tenor and bass recorders - both broken, not due to poor quality, but overuse. I was hoping they were going to bring Roessler recorders back, but they have such fantastic recorders in the Dream versions and the Denner series, that it seems pointless. Except, that the Roesslers were cheaper and at least affordable.

I don't think it's that hard to get the high register - it's just not as pretty sounding, as the first two octaves of the bass recorder. I find the same is true for the C concert flute. It makes some really ugly shrill squeaks beyond the 3rd octave.

I've no idea how good or bad a player I am, since I play for myself in the woods or lakes mostly. Well, a runner came by and started clapping - he really spooked me out, but then again, anything in a pentatonic minor in the highest octave would spook anyone else out so we're evens. Today a cyclist pass by and gave me the 'What a weirdo look'. He was going to fast, so I just carried on playing the flute with my toes.

That was a joke

I wish I had more music on popular literature. I have a few books - Irish jigs and reels, and Balkan songs. Problem is, I find them rather lifeless and boring. I prefer solo flute, so I tend to go for long-winded classical pieces, or I just improvise.

Again, I wish you the best of luck with your repairs and with your new recorder.

Thanks. Well, I lost the chance to get a nearly new one on auction, but I'm hoping that the 'local' repair person can come up with an estimate within the next few weeks. Otherwise, I might seriously have to start busking, to earn enough to buy a Mollenhauer Denner Bass recorder *drool* *drool*

[JackCampin]

Zen-On are still making wooden basses. I have one (a 5400B) and the matching 2400B tenor. The range of both is only the usual two octaves and a minor third, but both have a pretty nice sound. The bass in particular has good responsiveness to really hard attack - I use recorders very much as folk instruments, usually for dance music, and the Zen-On bass lets me do almost reggae-like things under the melody line (a style that would annoy the hell out of Irish session purists, but then I don't play with them; I imagine Brian Finnegan would be okay with it).

I got lucky and found both, unplayed, in a charity shop a few months ago for a tenth of the new retail price. If I was paying full whack I'd do a bit more research.

No bass recorder does 3 octaves. I think the best bass I've ever played was a reproduction of a Kynseker - it only had a range of an octave and a fifth, but it was window-rattlingly powerful.

[James_Alto]

Zen-On are still making wooden basses. I have one (a 5400B) and the matching 2400B tenor. The range of both is only the usual two octaves and a minor third, but both have a pretty nice sound. The bass in particular has good responsiveness to really hard attack - I use recorders very much as folk instruments, usually for dance music, and the Zen-On bass lets me do almost reggae-like things under the melody line (a style that would annoy the hell out of Irish session purists, but then I don't play with them; I imagine Brian Finnegan would be okay with it).

No bass recorder does 3 octaves. I think the best bass I've ever played was a reproduction of a Kynseker - it only had a range of an octave and a fifth, but it was window-rattlingly powerful.

Isn't it incredible how cheap some of these instruments now go for?!

I got an ABS plastic English one after whingeing about my proper one being in repair - it's in incredibly good condition and the key pads suggest they've either been replaced or someone has never really played with it It only cost about $150 which is the same price as some of the descants. Two octaves and a minor third is okay. I see some of the great basses have a span of more than 3 octaves - if the tenors do too - it seems that the bass recorder technology is a bit behind.

Mine isn't powerful though - it's definitely a flauto dolce...

[JackCampin]

The idea that greatbasses can do three octaves comes from Anthony Rowland-Jones's book "Recorder Technique". Nobody else has been able to replicate what he claimed there, even using Rowland-Jones's own greatbass, and the consensus is that he was hearing the noises he ws making with over-optimistic ears.

Mine (a Kung palisander from the 1980s) does the usual, low C to high E flat.

[Tim2723]

...he was hearing the noises he was making with over-optimistic ears.

That happens to me all the time!

Seriously though, I didn't come out and say it earlier, but I've been wondering where all this business of three octaves comes from. I was always under the impression that one of the big reasons the modern flutes took over the world was that they could do something recorders couldn't: play three octaves. Even when I'm lucky enough to get the high Cs or Fs out of my instruments, they're not particularly musical sounding. I don't think I would use a third octave even if I could play it.

[James_Alto]

...he was hearing the noises he was making with over-optimistic ears.

That happens to me all the time!

Haha - funny guys.

Why should it be a limitation though? The flute can do 3 1/2 octaves; diatonic flutes can do 2 octaves + minor 1/3; in Moeck's range - it varies, according to the Hotteterre; Kynseker or Denner designs, albeit +/- a note or two from a 1/2 octave.

It's true that high notes risk being uglier! But with a bass instrument, I think I'd be happy with 2 1/2 octaves. Just an extra note available makes a huge range of music suddenly available!

I feel comfortable with the flute in the first 3 octaves; above that, sometimes I have to try a strike II in middle of a piece (not good) to hit it with good intonation.

I always thought the difference between a recorder and a flute was down to softness; I like the bass recorder for its soft tone, whereas the flute projects its volume much better - it's too loud to be playing at 3am at night

It's true though - pop music - Gershwin etc, only use about 2 octaves. My new (old) plastic cheap bass recorder does 2 octaves + minor third so I'm okay with that. No point in chasing silver bullets to buy a new one if it can't do anything more than my old bass recorder can (once it's repaired).

[michael ward]

I don't know if this has been recommended but my vote would go for the Kung Superio bass. It is a bent neck design.
Wonderful expressive tone, powerful.. so satisfying to play..I could go on and on. It's an instrument that is hard to put down and gets better and better.

Mine is in Pearwood. I chose it over the more expensive Cherry because I preferred the wood.
After a while I returned it to the Early Music shop in Bradford UK for a tune up and adjustment
and it has been superb since.

[James_Alto]

Thanks for the recommendation Michael.

The Kungs are very good ... and very expensive!

I'm reluctant to buy a bent neck design. Aesthetically I just don't bond with them, and also, I'm used to playing my bass recorder in 'sling' style, rather than front forward, where it's harder to read music from a stand that way, the way I do it!

I share that experience though - when I blow directly through the head without the bocal or the head cap, the sound is more forceful and firm. The bocals offer a smoother, maybe even more gentle sound. I'd like a Kung, but realistically the Moeck and the Mollenhauer recorders are the more affordable ones at under $1,500.

Do you play your Kung standing, or sitting? I find it easier to play standing, but the position of the knick style bass recorders get quite exhausting after 10 minutes!

[James_Alto]

Well for all you snoopers and lurkers who don't register nor contribute, but enjoy drooling over the bass recorder threads - here's the one I bought:




Of the ones I tried at around 1000Euro, the Mollenhauer Denner series really stood out. It has a special tonal colour and a warm and depth which is incredibly rich with overtones. Its coloration is probably better than my favourite Roessler (broken ). Miles better than the Moeck, which was not only lighter in weight (made of thin maple - even lighter than the Roessler) - and much much lighter than the Mollehauer (pearwood). The Moeck was low volume in comparison to the Mollenhauer and Roessler. It was cheaper and more affordable, but it is not in the same league.

I can't afford a Kung, but the Mollenhauer enthralled me. Now I'm trying to break mine in.

It actually covers exactly 2 1/2 octaves. Just that bit more than 2 octaves and a minor third which is the standard. I can reach the top note painlessly.

This one comes highly recommended!