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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:26 pm 
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Sure it wasn't this.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 2:27 pm 
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I have to admit it did cross my mind. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 3:06 pm 
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[Major thread revival. - Mod]

Been acquainting myself with the topic of kagura lately, and in the course of YouTubery noticed to my surprise that shinobue with fipples are apparently an accepted option, at least in Iwami Kagura performance (which rocks, by the way). Here's a pic:

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In this design option you just blow directly into the side hole at top, and the fipple takes care of the rest. Normally I would have thought that such a beast would just be a tourist item or a toy, but these babies are lacquered inside and on the ramp, which tells you they're for serious use. I've always gathered that fipple flutes never had a place in traditional Japanese instrumentation - I've never seen them listed - so I was surprised to see these being played. It's a total first for me. I expect it's a recent adaptation so as to dispense with having to develop an embouchure, but unfortunately I can't track down any info in English on the subject yet, so it's only a guess. Another guess is that they're only used in Iwami Kagura. Where's a kagura flutist when you need one?

Below is a link to an 11+ minute Japanese documentary on Iwami-style Kagura (noted for its high theatricality, tight choreography, outrageously embroidered costumes, kickass drumming and, IMO, the best masks). It clearly shows some fippled kagurabue at the beginning, both played and at rest. You can hear that it doesn't sound like a transverse flute; it's essentially a transverse whistle. If it's of interest, there are other troupes with headier drumming, but these guys make up for it on their own terms. You get a taste of the more exciting stuff toward the end during a battle with some very nasty-looking demons; rather than doing it symbolically as is more usual, here the good guys actually shoot the representational arrows at them. Here 'tis:

https://vimeo.com/69486030

No subtitles, sorry.

Oh, and by the way, the question was raised as to whether the rightmost tonehole is played on the seven-holed array: It is. You use your pinkie. :)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:43 pm 
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Very interesting!

Do you know where to buy these flutes?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:46 pm 
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No idea. My guess is that you'd have to be introduced to an artisan, and then hope he'll make one for you.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 7:35 am 
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I've found this but it doesn't look professional...
http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/sumi ... nd_item_en

Do you know other kind of transverse flutes with fipple?

Thanks!

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 1:47 pm 
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squirrel wrote:
I've found this but it doesn't look professional...
http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/sumi ... nd_item_en

First clue should be the beginning English text: starts out with "Toys". The Japanese text in the pic reads "omocha shinobue". Omocha means "toy" as well, so we've got that squared away. You probably find these things hawked at every festival all over the country. So yeah, no. Not professional. A souvenir at best, nice and dirt-cheap, so if it gets botched up in the revelry, no one's going to shed a tear. I remember festivals where you'd see cheap regular shinobue lying abandoned on the ground (I picked one up and tried it out; it played well enough), but it was 1992 and at the time I don't recall seeing any of these newfangled fippled jobbies.

I'm still trying to come to terms with the whole concept. I thought the Japanese were sticklers about certain things especially in traditional performance contexts, but time moves on and apparently things do change.

squirrel wrote:
Do you know other kind of transverse flutes with fipple?

Thanks!

I imagine they're out there, but I wouldn't have the first idea as to how to even initiate a narrow search.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:03 pm 
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Nanohedron wrote:
I'm still trying to come to terms with the whole concept. I thought the Japanese were sticklers about certain things especially in traditional performance contexts, but time moves on and apparently things do change.


Thanks for all your interesting informations, it's a fascinating world.

I've found this but it's a 5-hole flute with only one octave range, so I think it's derivated from a native american flute:
http://highspirits.com/collections/spir ... nese-scale

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 28, 2015 5:09 pm 
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squirrel wrote:
Thanks for all your interesting informations, it's a fascinating world.

You're all too kind. I'm sure I've bored everyone else to distraction. :twisted:

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 01, 2015 7:51 am 
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squirrel wrote:
I've found this but it's a 5-hole flute with only one octave range, so I think it's derivated from a native american flute:
http://highspirits.com/collections/spir ... nese-scale


High Spirits flutes are a well known Native American Flute maker, but their sub company Spirit Flutes is not quite the Native American style. Spirit Flutes used to offer both side blown fipple and end blown fipple designs, but now just manufactures the side blown. While they do offer the most common Native American Flute scale - the minor pentatonic, which is surely not only Native American tuning as the minor pentatonic scale has been used around the world since ancient times (the shakuhachi is minor pentatonic) - but they also offer other world tunings.

As you seen they offer a Japanese folk scale being the Ritsu Gagaku - Yo scale. This is a pentatonic scale consisting of the root, second, fourth, fifth, and sixth. This same scale is also shared by some Chinese folk scales and India raga scales. IMO, it is not the most Japanese feel as there are more pentatonic scales that sound more Japanese authentic to the listeners ear. Though, it is still a Japanese folk scale as well.

Of course they offer other scales too. Their Middle Eastern is a nice one.

Now if you are wanting to get close to the Shinobue, their Major Diatonic would be the closest to traditional Shinobue tuning. You would just be missing the lowest pinkie finger hole which plays the seventh below the root.

The Spirit Flute design is exactly the same as pictured above in Nanohedron's thread. You blow into the side directly into the hole and the air goes into an air chamber. Then, the air is directed through an air channel directed by a piece of wood/bamboo cover and then hits the splitting edge. Quite whistle like with the exception that the former uses an air chamber whereas the latter the air is blown directly to the splitting edge.

I hope this helps :)

Edit - I just looked closer and I see that the whistle style Shinobue shown above does not use an added piece over the air channel before hitting the splitting edge. Thus, it would be more whistle like over the Spirit Flute. Though, the Spirit Flute is still very similar also being a fipple flute.


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