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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 5:49 pm 
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Hi,

recently I've build a Bamboo Shakuhachi (using PVC and Bamboo tutorial over the net) and I'm really happy with its sound and tuning, but now I have to use and so build Japanese traverse flute (fue/ shinobue). I've found some tutorials over the web:

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~dl1s-ymgc/tsukur-e.htm

and

http://www.mejiro-japan.com/html/dl/e_s ... ng2009.pdf

but 3 different sites tell me that shinobue in key of C is tuned in different note! 3 different notes in the tsutsune position (all holes covered). One tells me that this should be A4, the other one Bb3 and the other one Bb2 and Bb3 at the same time!. I didn't know any flute that skip so much octaves like this on the first note!

So, this is the first question, which of the following fingering charts should I follow?


1) http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~DL1S-YMGC/fuku-e.htm#second

2) http://forums.collegiatetaiko.org/viewt ... 5b825d5e5f

3) http://www.taiko-center.co.jp/english/s ... harts.html

then, I couldn't understand really well the drawings of asahi.net tutorial, cause it's a drawing with the length of 430mm an 19mm of eternal diameter and 17mm for internal diameter and right after this another measurements with the length of 427mm and 18mm for eternal diameter and 11mm for internal diameter! Is that an extra part that i supposed to go inside the bamboo with a smaller diameter?

Then, is shinobue is supposed to use an extra cork together with the bamboo on the mouthpiece node or just a cork well fit inside? What's that bondo (bondo in Japanese) they are telling me about, is that the node?

Also I think that anyone that owns a Shinobue could answer me most of those questions.

Sorry for my bad English as always, and thanks in advance.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:31 pm 
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flautose wrote:
then, I couldn't understand really well the drawings of asahi.net tutorial, cause it's a drawing with the length of 430mm an 19mm of eternal diameter and 17mm for internal diameter and right after this another measurements with the length of 427mm and 18mm for eternal diameter and 11mm for internal diameter! Is that an extra part that i supposed to go inside the bamboo with a smaller diameter?


I believe that the first caption is just stating that the bamboo should be around 17 to 19mm wide while the inside of the flute should be 11 mm. In the construction picture it is just using the middle value of 18mm. The 3 mm at the end really shouldn't matter either as long as it is on the cork end.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 8:50 pm 
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I.D.10-t wrote:

I believe that the first caption is just stating that the bamboo should be around 17 to 19mm wide while the inside of the flute should be 11 mm. In the construction picture it is just using the middle value of 18mm. The 3 mm at the end really shouldn't matter either as long as it is on the cork end.


Um,

sure, that makes sense. Still need someone to answer me about the other question, and yet, a flute seems to be more resistible if worked out between two nodes. One closed when close to the mouthpiece and one opened at the end of the flute am I right?

Bamboo nodes can be called bonds? Or are so called in this text? If not, what are those bonds? (that's not the big deal since I can make it on both way, but in order to keep a 11mm internal diameter I think I must rip the nodes apart since they tend to be slightly smaller, , what really amuses me now are those crazy fingering charts).


Last edited by flautose on Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:09 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:07 pm 
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Ignoring the last hole, the charts seem similar to that of a fife. The first two octaves are the same with the difference being the embouchure, and the third has all the different cross fingering.

The instructions on making one that you have posted here

http://www.mejiro-japan.com/html/dl/e_s ... ng2009.pdf

seems to indicate that the cork is glued from the side away from the embouchure, and so the node, if present at all, must have been removed.

Looking at some of the ones that are sold,

http://www.mejiro-japan.com/system/inde ... tokusyu=on

The node does not seem to be used in the construction. The bond is just referring to gluing in the cork, they even mention superglue. Then they glue in an end cap and shape it with sand paper. "Bond" seems to just be glue or adhesive of some sort.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:38 pm 
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Ok, but it is supposed to thickens little by little till the end of the flute.
The asahi.net has a Japanese text also, and I've figured it from there. Also, by looking to the PDF in English it seems bigger on the mouthpiece.

As for the lowest note I've just figured it out now! I've found another fingering chart that is from an actual resin flute made by Aulos, and the lower note is A. Looking out in other pages I've concluded that some flute may use A, Bb or even G# as low note when tuned to C, and another notes if tuned to a lower tuning. The fact is that the draws show directly the higher Bb3 on 0 position (tsutsune for the Japanese) and then back to low tones on 1 position=C3, 2=D3 as you start uncovering the holes. I will make one in A, theoretically it's a rare note to use on shinobue, but I will use it on western music so it may come in hand.

Thanks!

Tomorrow it will be first thing on the morning (since it will ad a lot for a band rehearsal on the evening! I will keep you up to date if that works well!)


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:24 am 
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flautose wrote:
I will make one in A, theoretically it's a rare note to use on shinobue, but I will use it on western music so it may come in hand.


The flutes are in different sizes and called "hon choshi". Each number is another step in the scale.

8=C
7=B
6=Bb
5=A

An 5-hon choshi might not be the most common key, but it seems that they are still made and used.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 9:09 pm 
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so, if the flute is basically tuned on 8 that means, C it will go C,D,E,F... an so on as I open the holes just transposing the notes on the fingering chart? The first opened hole would be an D?

It looks like the size of the flute states that the second note must be C (1st opened hole) even if it has the low note as B, Bb or A


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:30 pm 
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From what I am seeing from the charts

It looks to me that that if you have an 8-hon choshi flute, then playing XXXXXX0 will give you a C and will play in that scale as you lift your fingers.

C XXXXXXO
D XXXXXOO
E XXXXOOO
F XXXOOOO or XXXOXOO
G XXOOOOO
A XOOOOOO
B OOOOOOO

On a 6 hon choshi flute playing XXXXXX0 will give you a Bb and will play in that scale

BbXXXXXXO
C XXXXXOO
D XXXXOOO
EbXXXOOOO or XXXOXOO
F XXOOOOO
G XOOOOOO
A OOOOOOO

I really don't understand the purpose of the seventh hole. Maybe it would make more sense if I understood Japanese music better, but it seems redundant and doesn't seem like it brings much to the instrument. It does not seem like it serves the same purpose as the key on a baroque flute.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 24, 2010 10:42 pm 
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I.D.10-t wrote:
I really don't understand the purpose of the seventh hole.

is it not to vent the bottom note? much like the 7th hole on an 8 hole simple system?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 7:08 am 
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If it was a classical flute it would be like adding the C key to the foot without a D# key. It is actually used, and not just ignored like the extra holes in a keyless flute, but unless one is playing in a different mode, I don't understand the point of it.

Just to add to the fingering charts,

http://www.mejiro-japan.com/html/dl/shino_unshi.pdf

Not very helpful, but it seems to confirm that the XXXXXXX position is Bb (or A#) on a C (#8) flute.

~~~~~~~~~~~~

Just for fun, the two Japanese tunes I know.

X: 1
T: Sakura
M: C
L: 1/4
K: Em
[| e e f2 | e e f2 | e f g f | e (f/e/)c2 |
| B G B c | B (B/G/) F2 | e f g f | e (f/e/) c2 |
| B G B c | B (B/G/) F2 | e e f2 | e e f2 |
| B c (f/e/)c | B2 z2 |]

X:1
T:Kojo no Tsuki
M:C
L:1/4
K:D
F F B c | d c B2 | G G F E | F3 z | F F B c |
d c B2 | G E F>F | B,3 z | D D C B, | G>G F2 | E F G>G |
F3 z | F F B c | d c B2 | G E F>F | B,3 z |]

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 8:58 am 
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Um,

but the fingering chart I've mentioned and is on the bottom of the first post of the intercollegiatetaiko forum surely helps. (here a link for them I've sent to imageshack)

http://img683.imageshack.us/i/fue1.png/

http://img704.imageshack.us/i/fue2.png/

The fact is I don't know if that shall be called a #8 #7 or number #6 in size but it surely uses the first hole for a lot of notes and does make sense at least, looks like #5 tough.

(and is enough to me to build one tuned on A, just don't know what would be the sequel on Bb or B or C. The question is would they just transpose notes? Or The only thing that really changes on size is the air you need and this extra note?)

would it be XXXXXX0 a C and XXXXXXX a C also? Probably it changes XXXXXX0 to D, while the lowest note is C and so the other fingering changes as well.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 25, 2010 9:55 am 
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Denny wrote:
I.D.10-t wrote:
I really don't understand the purpose of the seventh hole.

is it not to vent the bottom note? much like the 7th hole on an 8 hole simple system?

I.D.10-t wrote:
If it was a classical flute it would be like adding the C key to the foot without a D# key. It is actually used, and not just ignored like the extra holes in a keyless flute, but unless one is playing in a different mode, I don't understand the point of it.

This is the reason the :roll: was removed :poke:

ya don't seem to care about what the hole is for....ya want to know why you'd want to close it....then ya tell us that it makes a tone 2 1/2 steps down from open


is it also closed for some 3rd octave notes?

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PostPosted: Sat May 15, 2010 8:19 am 
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I guess I wonder about the seventh hole because of this quote.

http://jtrad.columbia.jp/eng/inst.html
Quote:
Also, among the shinobue used in the hayashi ensemble for Kagura, there are some that only have six finger holes. It is thought that this flute was adapted from Meiseigaku.


Preview of a book on Japanese music had some interesting stuff.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 24, 2010 10:56 am 
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Hi,
I just glanced through this thread.

I bought a 5-hon shinobue made by Ranjou at the mejiro-store in Tokyo about 3 years ago. It is an “uta”-shinobue (uta means song or ballad) which means that it is properly tuned. They are used to play with other melody instruments or to accompany songs.

The “hayashi”-shinobue is used for festival music along with drums and the fingerholes are drilled with the same diameter and distance from another.

I got some tune books in western notation which I bought together with the shinobue.
Some tunes use the lowest note you get when covering the seventh hole (on my 5-hon in A it is F-sharp). The fingering is almost similar to tin whistle or simple system flute. Western music sounds very well on this flute but the minor seventh works only with half-covering or this fingering (oxxxxxo).
And yes, bondo means glue in japanese.

Hope this helps,

Tim


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 25, 2010 1:10 pm 
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Tim B. wrote:
And yes, bondo means glue in japanese.

Strictly speaking, it simply means the noun "bond", just like the word it comes from. It's a loanword from the English, hence the similarity in sound.

If you want words for "glue" they've got scads, including, of course, the English loanword "guruu". :)

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