desperate help needed

[jijothomas19]

hi i visiting the forum after a long time....hi to everyone out there...i really need some help from you people...im trying to understand how to connect western music theory in composing with the carnatic flute...if anybody can help...the carnatic flute...i really need help in determining the keys of the flute...carnatic flutes are numbered from 1 to 7 guess...and the notes are sa re ga ma pa da ni sa.....i just no that sa represents `C`...thats it....more input will hugely be appreciated......

[hans]

these pages may help:
http://www.anubodh.com/carnatic_flute.htm
http://www.anubodh.com/Carnatic_fing_ch ... Chart.html

Sa Ri Ga ma Pa Da Ni Sa is a major scale
i.e. if the tonic is choosen as C
then you got the scale of C D E F G A B C'

But note that the tonic Sa could be choosen as any note, not just C.
You may simply use a flute of a different length.

[Nanohedron]

Yes, "Sa" can be anything, like the "Do" in "Do Re Mi...", etc. However, a friend informed me that on its own, Sa commonly has designated to it a default pitch, which pretty close to C#.

[talasiga]

Yes, "Sa" can be anything, like the "Do" in "Do Re Mi...", etc. However, a friend informed me that on its own, Sa commonly has designated to it a default pitch, which pretty close to C#.

No, that "default" is only for male voices just as "G#" is for female voices,
usually for teaching groups in an institutional setting where some sort of average pitch is needed for convenience. Some teachers carry this over for private sessions but ultimately it is expected that the evolved singer will find his or her best pitch.

Even so, I have convened and attended singing and instrumental workshops by indic masters where the the Sa (tonic) was variously C or G or D or E etc.

I am speaking of the Hindustani branch.
I will respond on Carnatic in my next post.

[talasiga]

jijothomas,
I am not trained in Carnatic system but I have had enough exposure to know
that in Carnatic fluting the Sa is generally here on any flute:-
XXO OOO O
(contrast with the Hindustani flute Sa at XXX OOO).

The default scale in Carnatic flute therefore is Mixolydian
and you actually have to half whole to get an Ionian (standard major).

[jijothomas19]

hi talasiga,

well...im a total beginner...so please bear with my stupid replies....wud u please mind telling me...wat the numbers represent like wat does 1,2,3 stand for.....and how does it make it mixolydian...cud u guide me a little bit through scales and modes...please dont recommend any books...lets hav the discussion on the forum.....it wud be good if u could compare....the tinwhistle with the carnatic flutic...im playing a number 3 carnatic flute...just a beginner...and i own a key of d clarke tinwhistle......if u could compare them both ...and explain how scales wud work on both of them...and the importance of key in both of them...i think u need to know stuff like tht to compose tunes...but i really cant get to understand..i tried to understand some guitar theory on the process but failed...at tht...cause they started speaking more of chords and stuff....i din find the real melody stuff...oh thts too much i guess...please do help

[Nanohedron]

No, that "default" is only for male voices just as "G#" is for female voices,
usually for teaching groups in an institutional setting where some sort of average pitch is needed for convenience.

Thank you, good to know. My friend is indeed male, so this would explain a probably unintended omission.

But what about instruments other than voice?

[talasiga]

......
But what about instruments other than voice?

This is only a list of instruments I can talk about without having research.
It does not cover all instruments.

In my experience the
Usual Tonics for Hindustani Classical Music
Sitar: C, C#, D
Rudra Veena: low G, G# etc
Sarod: B, C, C#
Sarangi: D, Eb, E
Flute (bansuri): low Eb, E, F (tuition usually in E)
Dilruba: as for sitar
Treble head of tablas: the tonic of the melody player or the perfect 5th, 4th or 3rd
Treble head of pakhaawaj: as above.

[talasiga]

jijo,
there is a big ask in your last post and bear in mind that I am not trained in Carnatic system.
However, if you cannot find a useful site dedicated to that I can try and help you out in a general way.

My approach will be hands on with only a scent of theory.
To interact with me you will need to have at hand
* a tin whistle
* a carnatic bamboo flute (venu)
* a keyboard

tin whistle and flute need to be in the same key
so if your flute gives C at XXO OOO OO and E at XXX XXX XO
your tin whistle must be C at XXO OOO and F at XXX XXX

[jijothomas19]

well my venu gives me....sa - XXOOOOOO,ri - XOOOOOOO,ga - OOOOOOOO,ma - OXXXXXXX,
pa - XXXXXOOO,dha - XXXXOOOO,ni - XXXOOOOO....is that the c major scale..cdefgab....and i think ur talking about a key of F flute in ur last post right?cause i know "all the holes closed note" is the key of the whistle....and yea go ahead and explain....ive got a keyboard too.....

[doublebucklemonk]

For what it is worth,

If you have a #3 flute like you said, SA is E (xxoo oooo), so Sa Ri Ga ma Pa Dha Ni is an E Major scale

All the notes on your flute would be
Sa-E
ri-E#/F
Ri-F#
ga-G
Ga-G#/Ab
ma-A
Ma-A#/Bb
Pa-B
dha-C
Dha-C#/Db
ni-D
Ni-D#/Eb

as Hans mentioned earlier, there is a good fingering chart here

http://www.anubodh.com/Carnatic_fing_ch ... Chart.html

[talasiga]

jij,don't tell me sa ri ga etc just now.

what is the note you get when you play
XXO OOO OO ?
what is the note you get when you play
XXX XXX OO ?
and what is the low note you get when you play
XXX XXX XO (the last X being your RH pinky closing the hole)?

im a total beginner...so please bear with my stupid replies....

If you simply answer my questions directly I will not consider them unhelpful replies to enable me to try to assist you.

[doublebucklemonk]

what is the note you get when you play
XXO OOO OO ?
what is the note you get when you play
XXX XXX OO ?
and what is the low note you get when you play
XXX XXX XO (the last X being your RH pinky closing the hole)?

Hope this helps and doesn't add to the confusion.
Again, assuming it is a #3 flute.
xxoo oooo =E
xxxx xxoo = is not used, but xxxx xhoo is A# and xxxx xxho is A. I'm guessing xxxx xxoo would be the quarter tone "A quarter sharp"
xxxx xxxo = G#
xxxx xxxx = G (this is the lowest note on the flute and uses all four fingers of both hands)

[jijothomas19]

well i wud like to tell you der is a small sticker on the flute saying it is 3/E.....

but closing the first 2 holes is giving me a `F`.....
closing the first hole is giving me `G`....

i mean is tht possible...ill do a recheck on the notes once again on my tuner....and post day after but these were the results i got .....please do be free to ask....