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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 11:03 am 
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So an ocarina of the same diameter and length as an open tube will play an octave lower, is that what you're saying? (I actually did do a test on two recorders I have, stopped them up, and got no tone, but that may be a function of the type of fipple, or possibly that neither is a particularly high-end recorder)

I did find a tutorial on making a PVC ocarina, but the sound sample is appalling...still, might be worth a test.

Back to ye olde fipple drawing board.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 2:29 pm 
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opera13 wrote:
So an ocarina of the same diameter and length as an open tube will play an octave lower, is that what you're saying?
Yes, but it wouldn't be an ocarina, it would be more like an overtone flute.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:11 pm 
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I don't think I follow.

Remember, I'm a total woodwind newb here, and my basic goal is to produce a playable y-shaped instrument at a pitch that doesn't make my ears bleed. Right now the sample sounds all right, but I'm not really sure how to tune it, whereas the tuning of an ocarina seems to be pretty straightforward: You get the core tone and then you drill each new hole bigger and bigger till the next note comes out right. Also, if I ever try the double-chambered idea, I'll be dealing with half the pipe volume, which would, I think, make each pipe very high, so if capping the ends will bring the tone down, I need to know that.

An overtone flute seems to have few or no holes?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:01 pm 
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The difference is between a volume, which exhibits Helmholz resonance, and a long tube, in which a standing wave develops at resonance. For the ocarina, the area of the open toneholes increases the resonant frequency. For the long tube, opening a tonehole makes it behave like an open tube (even if the bottom end is closed) of roughly the length from the fipple to the nearest open tonehole. Unless your tubes are really fat, my guess would be that your Y-shaped flute would behave more like a long tube, one long(ish) tube that's somewhat shorter than the distance from the fipple to the nearest open tonehole, regardless of which branch the open tonehole is on. If you're aiming for low pitch, the double tube puts you at a disadvantage right out of the gate.

Figuring out where to put your toneholes to produce some kind of scale, even if you're resigned to a higher pitch, ... well, in principle it's do-able, but it would be quite a puzzle to assemble.

The math gets more complicated if one or both branches are totally closed. I'm not going to attempt predictions or generalizations for that one.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:59 pm 
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Ah, I see what you're saying, and it makes sense in my head, however it seems to conflict with this instrument from Wood n Bone?

Image

The tubes can't be all THAT fat, or the double pipe wouldn't fit in one's mouth. (He sells singles too.) Mind you I can't get the sample files to play, so can't tell how they sound.

Edit: wait, here's a vid that shows them. Nice tone. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdVZTOL23lA


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 9:51 pm 
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Are the any toneholes on the farther flute, or does that do nothing but play a bell-note drone? Does the term bell-note mean anything when it comes to ocarinas?

I think that part of the confusion is that we actually have three kinds of flutes: fipple flutes (whistles), ocarinas, and overtone flutes. Each has distinct physics, hence their own set of variables. We - by which I mean I - might be talking as if there are only two kinds. However, I can find no way of determining where an ocarina stops and where a closed-end overtone flute begins, if shape means nothing to an ocarina resonator. I wonder if, as possible standing wave length increases (ie, bore length vs width) there comes a point at which the standing wave overpowers the Helmholtz resonance and the chamber switches modes.

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Last edited by s1m0n on Thu Aug 25, 2016 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:05 pm 
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Here's the text of a comment I left on the ocarina physics site. It'd be useful to get some expert input.

Quote:
Hello Allen

Thank you very much for your illuminating article. At the moment, an argument (actually, a mutual exploration) rages on the Chiff & Fipple (viewtopic.php?f=20&t=103256) tin whistle board, and your ocarina physics expertise would be very welcome.

In short, a member would like to make a working version of the (fake) Y-shaped prop played by Mr Tumnus in the Narnia movie The Lion, the Witch & the Wardrobe. Yes, we know that the prop was fake and the sound was actually two Georgian Duduks.

We've ended up in a morass discussing where an ocarina ends and where a closed-end overtone flute begins. Do you have cogent insight to add? How do the physics differ?

_________________
And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 24, 2016 10:27 pm 
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Why thank you s1m0n.

To answer your question, I believe the second ocarina in the picture is a drone, but in the video both ocarinas can play multiple notes, together or separately. (This is where I may hit problems if I try to give the illusion of a single mouthpiece feeding two chambers. Playing only one side or the other might be almost impossible.)

On a separate note, everything I read about crafting woodwinds and wooden ocarinas says to use hardwood. Is there any particular problem using something like white pine for prototyping once I'm past the PVC stage?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:03 am 
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opera13 wrote:
Is there any particular problem using something like white pine for prototyping once I'm past the PVC stage?


None. Durability will be an issue - even a soft bite will dent white pine - but I expect for a prototype pine will suffice. Unlike a stringed instrument in which the various tonewoods resonate and hence matter, in woodwinds it's the air in the chamber/body that resonates with near zero (if not absolute zero) influence from the enclosing material. Coarser grained woods might result in a more turbulent stream of air through your flute if you're not careful with finish/oil, but the properties of the wood itself has little or no effect.

Or at least, such is the current consensus. It's a hotly debated issue.

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And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis


Last edited by s1m0n on Thu Aug 25, 2016 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 12:53 am 
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Allen (of Ocarina Physics) sent a message saying that he'll be happy to contribute once his forum membership is approved. I'm eager to hear what he has to say, and I hope I understand it.

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And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 9:49 am 
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Wow, thanks again.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 25, 2016 4:18 pm 
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Project Update: I've started hollowing out a y-shaped piece of wood for a rudimentary ocarina test. (Where has my Dremel disappeared to when I need it? Ah well, hand tools are fun.) It should answer some of the questions regarding a single-chambered design and tuning. I expect it'll be a couple of days before I've hollowed out enough to test. Real life and limited daylight hours interfere.

I'm referencing the fipple design in this tutorial: http://www.instructables.com/id/How-to-Carve-an-Ocarina-out-of-wood/step4/making-the-fipple/


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2016 1:36 pm 
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Hey there!

I understand you want to know the difference between a flute and an ocarina. For that we'll have to go one step higher in the zoo of instruments: the ocarina is a vessel flute. Vessel flutes are closed chambers that are generally non-cylindrical. The Gemshorn and the ancient Xun are examples of this. In fact, any ordinary bottle is a vessel flute, too, where the fipple is the edge of the opening.

It is technically not correct to call the above instruments ocarinas, because ocarinas are a particular style of vessel flutes. The traditional ocarina has a body that looks like a goose ("ocarina" is Italian and means "little goose") or alternatively a sweet potato (thus known as the sweet potato ocarina or sweet potato piper) and it has a particular fingering style. The ocarina was the first vessel flute in history to be designed for concert level performances. My ocarina history article goes into how all that came to be. Today ocarinas have all kinds of shapes, because the shape of the resonance chamber and the position of the holes are irrelevant.

A flute is just a tube whose effective length you change by opening a hole - it is the length between mouth piece and open hole that determines the sound. In a vessel flute, you open holes to increase the open area on the resonance chamber (that's the area of all the open holes added together), which changes the sound. The physics of these two instruments is, therefore, entirely different. Also, all of the holes in ocarinas have different sizes, which is precisely because the sound depends on hole area, not hole position.

All in all, I would say this: If the sound of your instrument depends on its shape and hole positions, it's a flute. If hole positions and shape are irrelevant, its a vessel flute.

- Allen


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 9:23 pm 
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Project Update: Well I've hollowed out some white pine into a y-shape and attempted to create a working ocarina fipple. I'm testing the fipple by pressing the two pieces together. Sometimes, when I shift the two pieces just right, I can produce a weak note, an F#5m but this is incredibly sporadic. I tried to take away some more material to bring it down to an F, but despite this, the note never changed a bit. I don't know how to account for that. I definitely need a more reliable mouthpiece though. And the note that it does produce, besides being weak, is sorta buzz-y and unattractive. :(

Possible problem points:

1. imperfect seal when pressing top and bottom together. They're a bit large for my hands to do this evenly.
2. wall thickness, whether around the bottom and sides, or the 1/4 inch thickness of the top.
3. size of the window
4. length of the mouthpiece block
5. rough interior of the chamber
6. airway too thick/wide (it was thinner when I started, but...)
7. angle of ramp

http://www.thelionscall.com/wp-content/Temp/flute-wood-1.JPG
http://www.thelionscall.com/wp-content/Temp/flute-wood-2.JPG

Suggestions, gentlemen?

Also, welcome, Allen. Thank you for lending your expertise to the conversation.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 11:55 pm 
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Ocarinaforest wrote:
I understand you want to know the difference between a flute and an ocarina.


Thank you. To be most precise, we'e hoping to understand the difference between an ocarina and a closed-end overtone flute. Open end flutes we understand. Where does the distinction lie betwixt this and an ocarina?

_________________
And now there was no doubt that the trees were really moving - moving in and out through one another as if in a complicated country dance. ('And I suppose,' thought Lucy, 'when trees dance, it must be a very, very country dance indeed.')

C.S. Lewis


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