Geoffrey Ellis Pratten Style Flute - Tour Anyone?

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Re: Geoffrey Ellis Pratten Style Flute - Tour Anyone?

Post by Geoffrey Ellis »

jemtheflute wrote:Interesting tour and reviews, lovely looking flutes. Wish there was a Euro-leg!

One makerly Q, Geoffrey. I note you are drilling the embouchures and at least to some extent the tone-holes in the V grain, and that does look very pretty, especially in some of these gaudy exotic timbers. But I've long noted that the "old guys" always, quite invariably, of all nationalities, drilled their holes, and most certainly the embouchures, in the vertical grain, at 90 degrees to yours, so the V grain would be on the "side walls" of the flute when in playing position, not the top and bottom of the tube. I have always assumed there were wood-workers reasons for making that choice, to do with exposure of the lateral grain in the hole chimneys and the risks of water absorption there, as well as perhaps to do with reducing risks of cracking. It has usually been one of the marks of the "Pakistani table leg" flutes that they have the holes drilled through V grain top and bottom, and though I may have seen flutes by some reputable modern makers done this way too, most do not do so. Now, I absolutely do not mean to imply any other kind of comparison of your workmanship to the dreaded table legs, but I wondered what your perspective (and Terry's, given the conversation in the concurrent cocus thread) might be on this question of what angle to drill the holes relative to the grain, and also to what extent your sealing treatment might render older fashioned considerations (why the old guys did it their way) redundant?
Hi Jem,

Very good question. The old fashioned method of having all the holes cut into the denser grain makes good sense. I think it would be better for the embouchure cut particularly, being that a denser, finer grain will likely behave a bit better when cutting it. I use that plug of blackwood for looks rather than utility (at least that was my original reason) but it had the added advantage of creating a very predictable embouchure cut.

Admittedly, my more "modern" approach to materials probably renders a lot of the old fashioned preferences moot, so I tend to make these decisions based more on aesthetics. With many of these woods (blackwood, cocobolo, kingwood, and even maple) they are already so dense and fine grained, I haven't noticed much of a difference in where I put the holes (in terms of workability). How the wood handles moisture is something I've honestly never had to consider due to my method of sealing the wood with epoxy. If I were using more traditional oil finishes I'd probably have to give the grain orientation more significance, and even though I think the V grain on top looks very nice, I'd certainly change my tune if it was causing moisture problems. I suspect that there are a fair number of tricks that the old timers figured out that I'm ignorant of because I've never faced the same problems that they did. I've never attempted a more traditional approach to making this type of flute. I suppose each generation of makers takes advantage of whatever materials and tools become available to them, solving their problems according to their means. I've often wondered what the makers of 160 years ago would do if they had modern finishes available to them. If they had epoxy, delrin and such, would they be taking advantage of it?

Having said that, I'm always open to rethinking my approach to making these flutes if it will improve them. There is always room to learn more about the craft of flute making, and this is especially true when getting into making something that differs so much from my past endeavors. Hopefully this tour will continue to yield useful feedback. These flutes are experimental in terms of materials and some of my approaches to making them and I'm keen to know how they compare to similar flutes and what the player's experience's are.

Incidentally, I'd love to do a Euro-leg of the tour. This leg of the tour was confined to the U.S. for the sake of simplicity, but if there are other European members such as yourself who would like to participate in a tour, do please let me know.
Last edited by Geoffrey Ellis on Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Geoffrey Ellis Pratten Style Flute - Tour Anyone?

Post by pmcallis »

:poke: ...and a Canadian tour would be great, too. I'll volunteer to co-ordinate the festivities if it helps.
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Re: Geoffrey Ellis Pratten Style Flute - Tour Anyone?

Post by cory little »

I suggest adding a feedback thread to Geoffrey's site too.. he recently added a special section on the main page of the Flute Portal just for this sort of thing; under people's community: Flute Tours.


I really like that blackwood plug in the embouchure :thumbsup:
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Re: Geoffrey Ellis Pratten Style Flute - Tour Anyone?

Post by Gordon »

Before I send the Ellis flutes off to Pat later this morning, I thought I’d write some impressions after spending a few days with them.

Steve gave us all the measurements, so I won’t repeat any of that; micro-specs are not my thing, in any case. My regular flute for the past dozen years is a Pratten-style keyless Hamilton, so I felt perfectly comfortable with the Ellis Pratten, its hole sizes, outer diameter and bore – a bit different from the Hamilton, of course, but the adjustments are minor at best.

The Ellis Pratten is a very pretty instrument; beautiful wood, nicely made and well-finished. It’s very light compared to the blackwood Hamilton. I can’t say I personally preferred the lighter weight, but, for those seeking a lighter-weighted Pratten, this flute may fit the bill.

The Ellis has a consistently even sound I think many players will be very happy with. The embouchure cut allows for an easily-attained, warm, sonorous tone, but, purely subjectively, I found myself less thrilled with it the more I played, as if the flute was at its best before warming up, rather than once it had. I do prefer a flute with more edge to its sound/ That said, as I stopped trying to make it sound like the Hamilton and let it do its own thing, I ultimately enjoyed playing the flute and grew fonder of it over the three or so days it was in my possession.

I’ve not all that much to say about the cylindrical maple flute – it’s capable of a massively loud voice, but, like a bamboo flute – even to my Pratten-stretched hands – I could only really play this flute with a piper’s grip, which is not how I generally hold a flute. One suggestion I do have is to move the embouchure hole down, as if the head was turned, which would help a bit with its playability.

Thanks again to Geoffrey and Dennis for giving me the opportunity to play these flutes!
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Re: Geoffrey Ellis Pratten Style Flute - Tour Anyone?

Post by plunk111 »

I'll be passing the flutes on to Jeff in the next day or so - here are my impressions:

First, let me say that my regular flute is an 8-key John Gallagher, which is probably one of the finest flutes made, so I'm a little spoiled!

The maple flute... It has a nice sound and really seems more like a baroque/renaissance flute than an Irish flute to me. It likes a lighter blow and a focused embouchure, giving a nice mellow sound. In fact, it really reminds me of the bamboo flutes I've owned and played in the past. It's very light and responsive (with the proper embouchure), but a little quiet. Very nice low end and, unlike Gordon, I didn't have any difficulty with the finger spread. The only problem I found is that it plays very flat for me - I do mean VERY flat! Most of the notes were below the bottom end of my tuner (about 35 cents). It does play in tune with itself, however, so it's fine for solo playing. No way in a session, however. This could be due to me, but I kinda doubt it as I don't have this problem with other flutes. I should mention that I could roll it out to get to pitch, but it was so much that the tone was very airy and, well, crappy!

On to the Pratten...

This is one GORGEOUS flute! The pictures don't do it justice. It's go a good "heft" to it and the construction is truly beautiful. The blackwood insert, which I had my doubts about, is really nice and adds to the beauty of the instrument. However, I really don't like the sound I get from it that much - as Gordon said, it seems to play best before it warms up. Not sure if it's me or the flute, but I found that a little strange - not sure what could cause that. One reason might be that I was continually fighting it to get the pitch right on - it was flat in the lower octave and sharp in the upper, so I tried adjusting the cork. This helped a little, but I never could get it just right. With the slide all the way in, I could just barely get the lower octave up to pitch. Again, this could be me as I normally play with the slide on my Gallagher only about 2mm extended. Tone is pretty nice, but again, I was fighting it, I think. I did notice that the bore (at the bottom end) is quite a bit smaller than any other flutes I own or have owned. It is "belled" ala Doyle, but narrows so much that it won't fit on my flute stand. In fact, in trying to run a silk swab through it using the rod supplied, I found that it was pretty tight.

Bottom line - this flute has great potential, but I don't really think it is ready for "prime time" yet. I'd have to say that all the (decent) flutes I've owned play better than this one. I've owned: Burns Folk Flute, Copley 4-key Blackwood, Copley keyless blackwood, Doyle blackwood, Sweetheart rosewood, Copley delrin (X 2), Sommers delrin, a William Hall, my beloved Gallagher, and probably some more that I've forgotten.

Please take this with a grain of salt - I would NOT consider myself an expert player (yet)! These opinions are my own and may not reflect the playability of either flute.

Pat
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Re: Geoffrey Ellis Pratten Style Flute - Tour Anyone?

Post by Geoffrey Ellis »

Most players will probably already know this, but it occurred to me to mention that it might be wise to check the stopper placement when the flutes arrive. They should each have a swab stick with them that has a hash mark for checking the stopper placement. The long stick is for the one-piece flute and the short one is for the Pratten. To use the measuring stick on the Pratten, remove the head from the barrel at the slide and measure from the slide end of the head.

For the sake of reference, I tuned the Pratten with the slide extended 5mm at a room temperature of about 68 degrees Fahrenheit. It was spot on (A440) under those conditions with my embouchure. It is useful information for me to find out how sharp or flat a player might play with these flutes so that I can get a better sense of what the "average" is in terms of embouchure to compare with my own, as it will potentially influence how I tune them in the future.
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Re: Geoffrey Ellis Pratten Style Flute - Tour Anyone?

Post by paddler »

Pat, do you know what the temperature was when you were evaluating the tuning of the flutes? I ask because I was surprised by your description of how far out they were compared to A=440hz. Before the tour started I played that flute, plus two others that were identical to it other than the type of wood used. One of them (the cocobolo one) I still have in my possession. I played all three flutes fairly extensively in front of a tuner and sent my feedback to Geoffrey. For me, playing in a room at 70 degrees with the slides almost completely closed (actually about 2mm out) the tuning was pretty spot on for A=440, and was very similar to several other top end flutes I own.

I do tend to blow on the flat side, but that being the case, I expected any error in tuning to be in the opposite direction than what you described. I'm not sure what could explain this other than temperature or humidity. In the past, I have made the mistake of evaluating the tuning of a flute in a cold room and subsequently reported it to be at concert pitch when in fact it ended up being at HP when measured at standard temperature, so nowadays I'm cautious about that.

Of course, with the slide extended significantly further than described above, the flutes would play flatter than A=440 for me too. I believe I did suggest to Geoffrey at some point that maybe the head should be slightly shorter so that the target tuning could be obtained with correspondingly more slide extension (thus allowing more tunability in both directions).

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Re: Geoffrey Ellis Pratten Style Flute - Tour Anyone?

Post by plunk111 »

Temperature was probably around 68, so I doubt that was a factor. I DID say a few times that it could very well be me and not the flute! I think I blow "down" more than normal, which would tend to drive it flat. However, I did play my Sommers and Gallagher after testing and both of them were fine. It could also be that the embouchure cut is different enough from all my other experience to cause my difficulty. I think that, basically, the Ellis is probably not the flute for me but probably IS the flute for the majority of players "out there". My feedback was not designed to be critical, but as a critique, which is what the maker wants, I believe. I didn't see a mark on the cleaning rod, but I did set the cork correctly, btw (didn't bother with the maple one, though).

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Re: Geoffrey Ellis Pratten Style Flute - Tour Anyone?

Post by Gordon »

Let me just throw in that I didn't have any particular tuning issues with the Pratten - I didn't need to pull the slide out quite as much as I usually do, which either means the Ellis flute is a bit flatter, or that other flutes (for me), play a bit sharper. But that's what slides are for. So much depends on a given player's approach that adjustment, flute to flute, are almost always necessary, and slides are often (IMO) critical. The slide in the Ellis, BTW, was very nice, worked smoothly, and looked good.

The cork was set properly, far as I could determine. Cork position really only affects internal tuning within the flute itself, not overall tuning, sharp or flat, when playing with others. And the flute was fairly well in tune, to my ears, throughout the 2 1/2 octave range.

I agree with Pat that this particular flute simply didn't feel ready, yet. I won't speculate why. Comparing a new maker's flute to a Hamilton, or a Gallagher, is slightly unfair, but that's what any new flute is up against in the market; I've stuck with the Hammy through bad and good times and issues, because the flute is a brilliant-sounding workhorse; if it's not sounding its best, the problem is me, and often is. But I can't say that's true with this particular Ellis.

That said, I do think Geoffrey's design is a very good starting point and I look forward to trying his later models, down the road.
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Re: Geoffrey Ellis Pratten Style Flute - Tour Anyone?

Post by Geoffrey Ellis »

plunk111 wrote:Temperature was probably around 68, so I doubt that was a factor. I DID say a few times that it could very well be me and not the flute! I think I blow "down" more than normal, which would tend to drive it flat. However, I did play my Sommers and Gallagher after testing and both of them were fine. It could also be that the embouchure cut is different enough from all my other experience to cause my difficulty. I think that, basically, the Ellis is probably not the flute for me but probably IS the flute for the majority of players "out there". My feedback was not designed to be critical, but as a critique, which is what the maker wants, I believe. I didn't see a mark on the cleaning rod, but I did set the cork correctly, btw (didn't bother with the maple one, though).

Pat
All feedback is welcome, Pat :) The value of a tour, from my perspective, is to collect the impressions from as wide a variety of players as possible, be they beginners, professionals, or anything in between. Every player is different, both physiologically and in terms of tastes, expectations, playing technique, etc..

I've been making flutes for long enough to know that no maker is ever going to please everyone, which is why there needs to be a wide variety of makers. :wink:

My goal with the tour is to find out in what areas these flutes might need "tweaking" to make them as good as they can be for the widest range of players. As Jon observed, it might be necessary to shorten the head by a couple of millimeters in order to give the average player more tuning latitude with the slide.
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Re: Geoffrey Ellis Pratten Style Flute - Tour Anyone?

Post by Geoffrey Ellis »

Gordon wrote: I agree with Pat that this particular flute simply didn't feel ready, yet. I won't speculate why.
Please feel free to speculate if you can! I know that it is a highly subjective process comparing a flute to another flute or evaluating it's character, performance, etc..

However, the value to me is in the details. Knowing that a player doesn't like the flute as well as another maker's work certainly has some value because it tells a bit about the players tastes, but it doesn't give me much to go on. :wink: I say this as general encouragement to all tour participants, Gordon, since your review already contains a lot of great detail (much appreciated!).

I like to know if the player finds it too bright, too dark, difficult to develop a tone, easy to develop, whether they have trouble with the tuning, whether it is balanced for them, is it too reedy, not reedy enough, too heavy, too light, etc., etc. You get the idea. Any and all detailed observations are welcome!

I say this only to encourage the players to speak freely, not to pressure them to try and quantify the unquantifiable. I recognize that sometimes it is just a "feeling" and may not be something that language can address.
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Re: Geoffrey Ellis Pratten Style Flute - Tour Anyone?

Post by Feadoggie »

I'll jump in here with some more observations on my part. I don't know if these will be helpful or not at this point so take from them what you will.

I think we are seeing some real differences in how we each play the flute here. We all have different mouths and experiences. It seems like Pat is describing two different flutes from those I played. That does not actually surprise me though. I've had occasions where one or more players can pick up a certain flute and get great sounds from it and I can manage barely a squeak. And other times I have the strong tone on a new flute and the others may have the more demur sound. So I am not surprised by these observations.

I had no tuning issues with the Ellis Pratten flute. I played along with recorded music at pitch with no problems. I did have the slide closed a millimeter or so more than Geoffrey did when he tuned the flute.

I did find the embouchure a bit difficult compared to my usual flutes, but hey, I play them on a daily basis. I play a Michael Copeland stick and a few of Dave Copley's flutes most frequently. I also own a variety of other modern flutes and have owned quite a few more modern and vintage flutes over the years. Some flutes seem to require a different approach than others. The embouchures on some flutes I have owned were ultimately too elusive for me to want to keep them. We are all different players. Pat is playing a Gallagher. I've played a couple of John Gallagher's flutes while attending Augusta (I sold my whistles just across from John a couple times on "show and sell" day). They are great flutes and not particularly hard to play either, IMO.

I used two types of embouchure approaches on the Ellis which worked well but gave different tonal results. One, which is my preferred approach, was to use a very focused and narrow jet. In this case I had to position my lip farther back on the non-blowing edge of the embouchure hole than I do on most of my flutes. I also had to blow more across the hole than down on the blowing edge than I am accustomed. I was covering less of the blow hole than I do on my own flutes. That approach gave a strong tone with a good hard edge on the first octave, lots of high overtones. The second octave was crisp and sweet. That worked but did not sound like I expect a Pratten flute to sound.

The second approach was to use a broader, wider jet using more of the frowning mouth shape - imagine the mouth shape on Jeff Dunham's grumpy old man dummy Walter. (I can play the grumpy old man pretty good.) With that approach I still had to back off the hole more than I am accustomed. My lips were more relaxed than in the first case. This approach gave a great dark, rich tone when I hit it right. And when I got it right, the flute came to life and vibrated nicely under the fingers and was good and loud. Since I have not played with that mouth shape in a long time I found it difficult to hang on to for long periods. But it was there. And that made a lot of difference in how I perceived the flute's design in the end. It sounded much more like a proper Pratten flute. That is how I would pursue things if I had one of these flutes as my own.

Don't know what can be gained from that description but it is what I observed.

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Re: Geoffrey Ellis Pratten Style Flute - Tour Anyone?

Post by plunk111 »

Sounds like you found a sweet spot that I didn't think of looking for, Feadoggie. I do tend to blow down much more than across, which explains my "flatness" and it sounds like you are much more of a "roll-out" player, which would explain the NON flatness. Flutes are now on the way to Jeff and I won't be doing any more of these tours in the future.

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Re: Geoffrey Ellis Pratten Style Flute - Tour Anyone?

Post by Geoffrey Ellis »

plunk111 wrote:Sounds like you found a sweet spot that I didn't think of looking for, Feadoggie. I do tend to blow down much more than across, which explains my "flatness" and it sounds like you are much more of a "roll-out" player, which would explain the NON flatness. Flutes are now on the way to Jeff and I won't be doing any more of these tours in the future.

Pat
Pat,

I just want to reiterate that I am very appreciative of your participation and your input. I think every player's experience is both valid and valuable, and I hope that there hasn't been anything about this tour that has turned you off of tours in general. The observations of the players and the discussion about how players differ is very constructive.
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Re: Geoffrey Ellis Pratten Style Flute - Tour Anyone?

Post by Feadoggie »

Sometimes I don't say the obvious in my posts. Pat, I am agreeing with you on the embouchure (I believe). I see entirely what you are saying. My current habit in playing is to cover some of the embouchure hole with my lower lip and to blow down on the far edge. I find that works on most flutes to a greater or lesser degree. That approach did not work as well on the Ellis Pratten as I would expect. So I went searching for something that worked. I described what worked (for me) as input for Geoffrey's thinking on the embouchure cut.

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