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 Post subject: A curious phenomenon of learning
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 9:57 am 
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I don't know, but I suspect that everybody experiences this thing I'm about to describe.

When I started learning flute, just 3½ years ago, I worked on a very few tunes – things like The Galway Rambler and The London Lasses – some nice flute fundamentals. I worked them up until I thought I was pretty good at them. But, being a beginner, they were probably pretty rubbish. :oops:

I’ve moved on to all sorts of other tunes since, but I do get the ‘old’ tunes out and dust them off every now and then. What I find is that I’m making mistakes that I recognise as the sort of thing I did when I was first learning those tunes, but don't otherwise do now in other tunes (there are other horrors which I perpetrate now :lol: ). I find it really hard to get over those mistakes – but only for tunes learned when I was more generally prone to such mistakes – things like errors in timing, flubbed fingers, poor rolls, you name it.

I find it strange that I seem to have retained a sort of memory of these errors attached just to particular tunes.

The good news is that, although it takes some effort, I can eradicate those errors even from these ‘beginner’ tunes.

What is this about? I find it puzzling. I suppose somebody is going to tell me it’s ‘muscle memory’, but I’m not sure I believe in that*. If you think it is, could you convince me of its existence? If it’s something else, what is it?




*One of the reasons I would discount ‘muscle memory’ in this particular case is that I can play tunes on flute that I haven’t played on flute before, just because I know them on fiddle. So I think I play from knowing where the notes are rather than by rote discipline of my fingers. But I could be wrong …

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 Post subject: Re: A curious phenomenon of learning
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:07 am 
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practice makes permanent!

I'm not sure that I understand what "muscle memory" is.
I'm okay with reflexes...

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 Post subject: Re: A curious phenomenon of learning
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:35 am 
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You can't play a tune properly until you've made every mistake that you possibly can.
Just as when you were young you got sick often- you were building up your resistance.

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 Post subject: Re: A curious phenomenon of learning
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:37 am 
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Julia Delaney wrote:
You can't play a tune properly until you've made every mistake that you possibly can.
Just as when you were young you got sick often- you were building up your resistance.

Bloody hell! That's deep! I have a funny feeling it's right, too.

Is that your own, David, or did you get that from somewhere? Either way it deserves to be preserved. :)

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 Post subject: Re: A curious phenomenon of learning
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:39 am 
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Denny wrote:
practice makes permanent!

I'm not sure that I understand what "muscle memory" is.
I'm okay with reflexes...

Neural pathways, what I believe is mistakenly called muscle memory.

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 Post subject: Re: A curious phenomenon of learning
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 10:51 am 
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maki wrote:
Neural pathways, what I believe is mistakenly called muscle memory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception

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 Post subject: Re: A curious phenomenon of learning
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:13 am 
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MTGuru wrote:
maki wrote:
Neural pathways, what I believe is mistakenly called muscle memory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception

Thats it MTG.
I ar-tik-u-late bad.

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 Post subject: Re: A curious phenomenon of learning
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:36 am 
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MTGuru wrote:
maki wrote:
Neural pathways, what I believe is mistakenly called muscle memory.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception

I'm missing something here. Proprioception is not to do with memory, is it? It's the sense of knowing where the bits of you are. (I know about that, because I lost it and had to learn how to walk again following a bad leg injury a couple of years ago.)

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 Post subject: Re: A curious phenomenon of learning
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 11:53 am 
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Yes, I guess the applicable term would be Proprioceptive Memory.

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 Post subject: Re: A curious phenomenon of learning
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:00 pm 
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MTGuru wrote:
Yes, I guess the applicable term would be Proprioceptive Memory.

Yes ... but is there such a thing?

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 Post subject: Re: A curious phenomenon of learning
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:06 pm 
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benhall.1 wrote:
Yes ... but is there such a thing?

As someone who can continue to play after falling asleep, do you really need to ask? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: A curious phenomenon of learning
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:08 pm 
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MTGuru wrote:
benhall.1 wrote:
Yes ... but is there such a thing?

As someone who can continue to play after falling asleep, do you really need to ask? :lol:

Ah ... you may have a point there ... :oops:

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 Post subject: Re: A curious phenomenon of learning
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:21 pm 
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I look at it like any repetitive task. The more you do it a certain way, the more you'll keep doing it that way because you get to the point where you 're not thinking about it. The computer punch-card is already punched in your brain for that tune. And it has a hanging chad. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: A curious phenomenon of learning
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:22 pm 
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I noticed this particular phenomenon long ago. The tunes that actually got me interested in playing flute, and I therefore began with learning, I no longer even play because those same old mistakes and general immature playing style sets in every time. Kind of sad, actually, that I specifically shy away from playing those old tunes that originally inspired me to pick up the flute in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: A curious phenomenon of learning
PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 12:23 pm 
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Kirk B wrote:
I look at it like any repetitive task. The more you do it a certain way, the more you'll keep doing it that way because you get to the point where you 're not thinking about it. The computer punch-card is already punched in your brain for that tune. And it has a hanging chad. :lol:

I'm probably one of about 1% of UK-ers who knows what that means. :lol:

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