wooden flute tuning

[jim stone]

I take it that the closed hole cylindrical silver flute is more internally in tune than our conical flutes,
which involve various compromises so that human fingers can reach the open holes.
A flute that you have to learn to blow in tune to play in tune isn't (quite) in tune.
There are anomalies in the tuning that you have to lip up or roll the flute in or out
to correct.

Also, as somebody mentioned above, some makers like a flat
low D, perhaps because it has more power when blown in tune.

[Denny]

I've never met a woodwind that was perfectly in tune.

Boehm flutes do seem to be the closest of the lot.

[Terry McGee]

But even there, some experts aren't happy, and some makers are not really trying...

http://www.trevorwye.com/cooper1.html

Terry

[jemtheflute]

But even there, some experts aren't happy, and some makers are not really trying...

http://www.trevorwye.com/cooper1.html

Terry

And even when (if it's conceptually possible!) you arrive at the acoustically ideal instrument, in tune throughout the tessitura to 12TET (or any specified tuning system/temperament) blown neutrally with an average embouchure, you will still have to learn to play it properly "in tune" in any given musical context, even playing solo, let alone in an ensemble, as (as we've discussed before) no-one, even in the heights of the classical professional field, really plays absolutely in 12TET - human ears just aren't wired to find that "perfect". Some degree of as-you-play pitch modification always remains necessary, no matter how "well"/neutrally tuned your toot may be. Not that that argument excuses sloppy workmanship....

I agree with others above who are effectively asking what the OP means by "perfectly in tune" and the implication that, if he got it (such a flute, whatever that might be....), he might not like it! And of course, quite a lot of makers (especially in the baroque field) are deliberately making as-accurate-as-possible copies of their original models - with the expectation that the player will learn how to use what the instrument offers. That applies too even to somewhat-modified modern-made Simple System keyed flutes - if they have keys, they probably need the appropriate key-vented fingerings to play in tune. Certainly it is no use whinging that originals are "out of tune" unless you first explore the proper fingerings. But I would expect a modern keyless derived from 8-key retro-design to be corrected as far as the physical limitations and compromises permit. (e.g. if you have F keys which, vented, correct the F#, you don't have a flat F#, but if there's no F key, that F# ought to be made to be in tune as it stands.) And (another hobby-horse of mine) the (IMO misguided, on both flutes and whistles) obsession with achieving a usable C natural cross-fingering of oxx ooo doesn't help the design compromises around the C# tone-hole!

Oh, and another anecdote.... at the 2010 Berkenhage Flute Workshop in Belgium, I had a go on Harry Bradley's Murray (it was passed around for a late-night slow air sesh). Harry plays it effortlessly in tune. I (and others), on first blow, found its tuning to be very different from what we were used to in our own (varied) flutes and struggled quickly to come to terms with it. I like to think I'm fairly flexible in such matters and felt I was starting to "find" it tolerably before the end of my "go", and observed the same with several other participants, but one or two who attempted it simply couldn't accommodate themselves to it quickly and sounded awful throughout their tune..... where lay any "fault" in that scenario?

[jemtheflute]

I take it that the closed hole cylindrical silver flute is more internally in tune than our conical flutes,

My italics. ??????
The whole point (or a very major one) of Bohm's design is that all (or nearly all) the keys stand open, thus providing as near as possible perfect venting...... The only "closed holes" on a Bohm flute are the Eb, G# (not as Bohm preferred) and the two high trill keys.

Unless, that is, you are referring to the difference between all solid platter keys and the "French" style with the 5 pierced platters for L2 & 3 and R 1-3 sometimes unhelpfully referred to as "closed" and "open" keys. Any flute should be set up to be properly in tune with whichever type of key it has. Having the pierced type is not deleterious to the tuning per se or in any way inferior to all-solid (both styles have advantages and disadvantages), though if you swapped key type on an instrument without adjusting the key-rise etc. appropriately, that would cause subtle intonation problems.

[jim stone]

'I take it that the closed hole cylindrical silver flute is more internally in tune than our conical flutes,
which involve various compromises so that human fingers can reach the open holes.'

I meant the cylindrical silver flute the holes of which are closed by keys when they are closed.
An 'open hole' flute, in the context I was writing, denotes a simple system flute six holes of
which are closed immediately (when they are closed) by human fingers.

[jemtheflute]

'I take it that the closed hole cylindrical silver flute is more internally in tune than our conical flutes,
which involve various compromises so that human fingers can reach the open holes.'

I meant the cylindrical silver flute the holes of which are closed by keys when they are closed.
An 'open hole' flute, in the context I was writing, denotes a simple system flute six holes of which are closed immediately (when they are closed) by human fingers.

Didn't read like that, Jim, nor is it a "normal" usage, nor, despite your your (attempt at) clarification does what you wrote make sense as a physical description of the reality; hence misunderstanding. However, I'd totally agree with the bit in your latest where you say unkeyed holes closed directly by fingers are "open"! Otherwise, in fairly standard terms referring to keys, "open" keys stand held open by a spring (like most of Bohm's) and "closed" ones stand held closed by a spring (like most of the ones on a Simple System flute). "Open" holes either have no key or are operated by an open-standing key, "closed" holes have closed-standing keys....... Logical, see......

[jim stone]

I think people generally understood what I meant, however I've spent my life counting angels on pinheads
and am in no position to complain. Anyhow I don't play Bohm, but I nonetheless believe the standard Bohm
is more internally in tune than are our good conical flutes--though I will leave 'perfectly' to God. It is
a matter of degree. So somebody who prizes internal tuning might put a wooden headjoint on a
Bohm body. But of course part of the charm of our flutes is that they are odd and, to my ear,
sound more interesting for their quirks.

[I.D.10-t]

But of course part of the charm of our flutes is that they are odd and, to my ear, sound more interesting for their quirks.

That's kind of the thing, and why people buy baroque flutes, renaissance flutes, simple system flutes and that is just the European long flutes.

[Cubitt]

An aspect worth our discussion is the fact that flute, of necessity, requires an inconstant embouchure. Because there is no reed or fipple, the lips must adapt with the note and the octave in order to produce the sound. Much as a fiddler needs to find the finger position and the brass player must tighten or loosen the lips, the flute player is largely responsible for his or her own tone production from a tuning perspective. My experience has been that when a flute is made poorly, certain notes just so pop out as being in bad relative pitch that it is obvious the problem is not me. If the octaves don't match, I would investigate the position of the head cork. I keep mine at 23mm from the center of the embouchure. Because it is further out than it is "supposed" to be, it throws the third octave out of tune, but I don't use the third octave. The good news is that my lower octave is more powerful and the relative pitch plus the matching of the first and second octave is excellent on all three of my flutes.

[I.D.10-t]

What I have found curious is the amount different flute players rotate the embouchure towards or away from them. All this talk of the right embouchure, it seems odd that there seems to be a wide range of what works.

[Stuporman]

Rotation of the headjoint shouldn't have any effect on embouchure; the relationship between the lips and the embouchure hole take care of that. How the hands and arms are positioned to hold the flute for the best embouchure can be adjusted by rotating the headjoint.

[MTGuru]

Didn't read like that, Jim, nor is it a "normal" usage

Sorry, Jem, I gotta stand up for Mr. Stone here. I was a silver Boehm player (Gemeinhardt 3G, IIRC) in my, *ahem*, younger days. Don't know about there, but here closed/open hole was (and is) the standard terminology to distinguish the open French keys. Teachers and music educators use it. The makers themselves use it, e.g.:

http://www.gemeinhardt.com/catalogpage. ... oductid=49

Every fluter in our concert band aspired to afford an open hole flute. And when I sold flutes in the shop, I'd ask customers if they'd prefer open hole or closed hole. The terminology isn't unhelpful at all, as long as the context (silver Boehm) is clear. The pedant may not like it ( ), but it doesn't merit a browbeating.

In the context of Jim's question, I suppose it makes sense to specify closed hole, since that eliminates the variable of intonation adjustment with the fingers.

[jim stone]

Well, sometimes people say 'as happy as a philosopher with a new distinction.' It's nice to have people about
who care about exactitude and are passionate about arcane differences (at least in the eyes of most people).
If everybody was that way life would be impossible, of course; still I hope there is room for some of us. The chief reason
I don't follow Jem into the discussion about Bohm flutes is that I don't know enough about them.

[jemtheflute]

OK, OK, self-