Discoloration of Ebonite Flutes??

[psychodonald]

Recently, I read a thread, with some concern, regarding Ebonite flutes that over time have turned an awful color, from a black to kind of an olive drab from the appearance of some of the attached photos. I have an Ebonite flute, and was living under the delusion that I had, for all practical purposes, a virtually indestructible flute (of course within limits). Any clues as to what a person can due to preserve the appearance of the Ebonite and avoid the deterioration? Any idea as to how long it takes for the Ebonite to, I guess, break down? And finally, does the "modern" Ebonite material, over time, suffer the same fate? Thanking you all in advance for your thoughts, wisdom and helpful suggestions.

[an seanduine]

A little reading in the Wikipedia article should help. Ebonite is a form of vulcanized rubber. . .with a high proportion of sulfur.
Sulfur, even when bonded to latex, is not an inert substance. It changes over time. And of course, latex, even when bonded to sulfur, is an organic compound and subject to change over time. Ebonite is stable, for being a plastic. . .but it is still a plastic. Vinyl
plastic less so, thermo-set plastics like Bakelite more so. Chemically stable plastics like ABS and Bakelite lack some of the more appealing mechanical properties of Ebonite. I would think a Hawkes Ebonite flute that has survived over 100 years with only surface discoloration should give you some consolation.


Bob

[MTGuru]

Some interesting information on ebonite here:

http://cool.conservation-us.org/waac/wn ... 4-102.html

http://www.seattlepipeclub.org/content. ... e_id=16894

I used to see a lot of greening ebonite sax and clarinet mouthpieces with older instruments, and greening ebonite clarinets. But I don't have a good sense of the time frame. Some of the instruments were probably 40-50 years old, and indifferently cared for.

Somehow I got the notion that exposure to light (esp. UV) is a principal culprit. But it seems moisture, oxidation and atmospheric pollutants also contribute.

Guess you could hermetically seal your flute in the dark, which might make playing tricky. Otherwise, I'd guess some deterioration over, say, a period of decades is inevitable in the nature of the material. That's still a fairly long time frame for an individual owner or player. And judging from the world of pens, it looks like cosmetic restoration techniques hold some promise.

[Doug_Tipple]

Some interesting information on ebonite here:

http://cool.conservation-us.org/waac/wn ... 4-102.html

http://www.seattlepipeclub.org/content. ... e_id=16894

I used to see a lot of greening ebonite sax and clarinet mouthpieces with older instruments, and greening ebonite clarinets. But I don't have a good sense of the time frame. Some of the instruments were probably 40-50 years old, and indifferently cared for.

Somehow I got the notion that exposure to light (esp. UV) is a principal culprit. But it seems moisture, oxidation and atmospheric pollutants also contribute.

Guess you could hermetically seal your flute in the dark, which might make playing tricky. Otherwise, I'd guess some deterioration over, say, a period of decades is inevitable in the nature of the material. That's still a fairly long time frame for an individual owner or player. And judging from the world of pens, it looks like cosmetic restoration techniques hold some promise.

Shinola shoe polish will correct what eons of oxidation has done. Folks, this really isn't a complicated subject.

[mutepointe]

Can you just not think of this as "patina"?

[jim stone]

Green is the color of the spring....

[jemtheflute]

Can you just not think of this as "patina"?

As I understand it, apart from/in addition to a technical metallurgical usage to do with surface oxidation, patina means either "any fine layer on a surface" (e.g. "a patina of frost") or "the sheen on a surface that is caused by much handling, age and use". It does not properly mean a simple discoloration or encrustation, though sloppy/illiterate eBay antique dealers seem to have taken to mis-using it thus. They also seem to view it as having an air of desirability to it, which is not necessarily the case. There are undesirable patinas (in the proper sense) as well as desirable ones. (And then there's simple crud.)

Regarding Ebonite, the surface might well have a shiny patina, whether or not the material had discoloured. Ebonite which has gone chocolate/green/yellow deep into the material probably cannot (IMO) properly be described as "patinated". The changes commonly observed in old Ebonite are more to do with chemical instability due to "recipes" and production methods than to external pollution and use. I certainly don't think the discoloration of Ebonite is desirable, and IME Ebonite items which preserve their original shiny blackness would be considered more valuable than equivalent examples which have discoloured, dulled and even crazed.

In Archaeology the word is most often applied to flint, which over very long time-spans is subject to a chemical reaction in the surface (I presume oxidation and penetration by foreign substances) depending on ambient conditions to which it is exposed. The colours and rates of accrual of patinas vary in different environments. http://www.sciencemag.org/content/134/3 ... .abstract & http://time-lines.co.uk/stone-age-antiq ... 227-0.html

The Wikipedia article on the word suggests my subjective feeling against using it to describe aged Ebonite is wrong, however....

[Gordon]

UV light probably is one culprit, but I believe the chemical change is mostly due to oxygen - the former is easy to avoid, the latter, less so... Ebonite pipe stems discolor in a much shorter time span - I have several old pipes at about the thirty year range that have turned/lightened, and did so more in the ten to twenty year range - maybe thickness played a role? Also possible the quality of the ebonite makes a difference, the exact chemical composition, assuming there are variables(?), and that would also explain the variety of colors that appear over time, from brownish, which doesn't look bad, to greenish, which kind of does...

For those worried about discolorization, wood doesn't change color much - darkens, maybe - but then, it cracks over time, which ebonite is unlikely to do. Choose your poison, I guess.

[monkeymonk]

Shinola shoe polish will correct what eons of oxidation has done. Folks, this really isn't a complicated subject.

I read that caranuba wax was the best thing for polishing ebonite which is probably very similar to shoe polish idea....but really i don't know s**t from Shinola.

[jim stone]

It's not that easy being green
Having to spend each day the color of the leaves
When I think it could be nicer being red, or yellow, or gold
Or something much more colorful like that

It's not easy being green
It seems you blend in with so many other ordinary things
And people tend to pass you over
'Cause you're not standing out
Like flashy sparkles in the water
Or stars in the sky

But green's the color of spring
And green can be cool and friendly-like
And green can be big like a mountain
Or important like a river
Or tall like a tree

When green is all there is to be
It could make you wonder why
But why wonder why wonder
I am green, and it'll do fine
It's beautiful, and I think it's what I want to be

P.S. Think absinthe

[monkeymonk]

Absinthe makes the heart grow fonder.

[jemtheflute]

Trouble is, Jim that the kinds of greenish shade (or brown or yellow) that Ebonite goes to are distinctly unattractive and un-romantic, though reminiscent enough of aspects of life/nature, for sure. Think stagnant pond-bottom through sewer sludge, maybe ending up like baby-pooh. (At least the only smell is one of burnt rubber!) I'm all for restoration, and if possible, permanent fixing! Shiny, or even dull but definite black is much nicer.

[mutepointe]

Here's a link to the Mayan Countdown Calendar. This won't be a worry much longer.

Mayan Long Count Calendar

[jim stone]

Well, I've seen some attractively green old ebonite flutes at Ralph Sweet's place,
though I do agree that most greenish ebonite flutes I've seen were
less nice looking.

[shoreyflutes]

Ebonite reaches the natural color of Cambells pea soup (made with milk), one of my favorite colors in the bowl, but a nasty hue for a flute. I have always thought that this was sunlight engendered. Some ebonite flutes have not changed color at all, suggesting that different environments make the difference.

I have never heard of a way to bring the black back. i suspect that the chemical changes are more than skin deep. Any word to the contrary would be welcome!