Fixing side-to-side play in block-mounted keys?

[tsackett]

I have an antique William Hall flute that I think could benefit from a repad. However, I notice that the keys have a bit of lateral play. Would this prevent the pads from ever getting a perfect seal, or do keys generally self-center as they come down? I'm mostly worried about the Eb key, which is the biggest, has the most play, and which I used constantly.

I imagine that round purse pads would center more effectively, but the key cups on this flute are flat, so I don't know if I can use anything but flat leather pads.

So, I guess the questions are:
1. Should I worry about this, or does this kind of side-to-side movement not hurt the pads' ability to seal?
2. Should I do something to reduce the lateral play in the keys?
3. Should I use a purse pad on the Db key?

thanks,
Tom

[johnkerr]

I have an antique William Hall flute that I think could benefit from a repad. However, I notice that the keys have a bit of lateral play. Would this prevent the pads from ever getting a perfect seal, or do keys generally self-center as they come down? I'm mostly worried about the Eb key, which is the biggest, has the most play, and which I used constantly.

I imagine that round purse pads would center more effectively, but the key cups on this flute are flat, so I don't know if I can use anything but flat leather pads.

So, I guess the questions are:
1. Should I worry about this, or does this kind of side-to-side movement not hurt the pads' ability to seal?
2. Should I do something to reduce the lateral play in the keys?
3. Should I use a purse pad on the Db key?

thanks,
Tom

Yes, side-to-side play in block mounted keys can cause leakage. I had this problem on the C key on my Rudall and Rose flute. If it wasn't centered just right, the whole flute wouldn't sound - or at least any note below C#. Patrick Olwell put a pad on there with a nipple on it that fits snugly into the hole, stopping the side-to-side play entirely and fixing the problem. Now I need to get the same thing done on my long F key.

[Lars Larry Mór Mott]

Wouldn't it be possible to line the blocks a lá Northumbrian key work?
Perhaps that's too dear/not 'kosher' on a antique flute..

[tsackett]

Wouldn't it be possible to line the blocks a lá Northumbrian key work?
Perhaps that's too dear/not 'kosher' on a antique flute..

That sounds like a possibility, especially if there were an historically-informed way of doing it that could be considered a restoration, but I'm not sure what that would be. Alternatively, if there were a non-permanent way of lining the keyway, I would try it.

By the way, the range of motion of the Eb key, measured at the center of the key cup, is about 2mm. I don't have a picture of my own flute, but this one is identical:

[plunk111]

Tom:

I've played MANY hours on that flute and never had a problem. Also, I repadded it a couple of years ago. If you do a suck check and it is good (which it still should be), there shouldn't be a problem... I sure don't remember any lateral play in the keys, or if there was it didn't matter.

Pat

(EDIT) 'Course, I didn't use the Eb key very much!

[Dominic Allan]

A good quick fix is to remove the key and glue paper or thin card to the inside of the slot (just one side is usually enough)
Impact adhesive is best. you'll need to re-do the hole for the pin then carefully trim the excess away with a razor blade.
You can also colour the paper using felt tip or permanent marker to match the surrounding wood , if done well it's almost invisible.

[tsackett]

Pat-

The flute plays beautifully as is. However, I slipped some rubber seals under the pads and found that it plays even stronger with a better seal. This may be because I do use the Eb key a lot to improve the intonation and voice of Enatural, and it is getting slightly unseated each time. I think the Eb pad is made of foam, and has an impression of the tone hole embossed in it. If it's not lining up perfectly as it closes, it might not seal perfectly.

-Tom

[jemtheflute]

Very often if all the angles of cup to bed etc. and the action of the spring are right, they key will tend to close true unless you push the touch at a funny angle. Even keys with quite a lot of play often operate quite reliably. However, it can be a problem, and if it is you need to fix it.

For a slightly more permanent fix than Dom's, I have had success (thus far) with this method. Get some matching wood dust and some superglue and with a spatula tool carefully build up a layer of dust-filled glue on each wall of the key channel. It may be wise to slightly scarify the walls first with a file to key them. Then very carefully file away with fine engineering needle files until you have a re-cut key slit which fits the key snugly (make sure you check for free key-action!). I've had good results with this but can't yet say how durable it will prove to be.

I have also gone the next step and cut away damaged block/keyway surfaces, glued in shims of matching wood and filed out to fit or completely filled the key slot by gluing in a piece of timber, then filing it to the block profile and cutting a completely new slot through it. That is safer and requires less skills than making and fitting metal keyway bushes (which can be a cause of subsequent cracking).

[jemtheflute]

Pat-

The flute plays beautifully as is. However, I slipped some rubber seals under the pads and found that it plays even stronger with a better seal. This may be because I do use the Eb key a lot to improve the intonation and voice of Enatural, and it is getting slightly unseated each time. I think the Eb pad is made of foam, and has an impression of the tone hole embossed in it. If it's not lining up perfectly as it closes, it might not seal perfectly.

-Tom

Sounds like a simple repad might suffice, then - use a high quality leather-covered clarinet pad. They still take an impression of the tone-hole rim, but less uncompromisingly. Repad first, and check all details of the action as I already suggested before embarking on anything more radical.

[paddler]

I second Jem's suggestion to use a leather pad. I have a couple of flutes (a William Hall and a Firth Son & Co) that seem to have identical key work to yours. My WIlliam Hall flute also has a small amount of play in the Eb key. I have experimented (on this flute and on others) with closed cell foam pads and with high quality leather pads from Prestini. The latter seal much better.

[Jon C.]

If you check the key to see if the pin is loos in the key, I re-drill the pivot pin hole, and use a thicker pin.

[tsackett]

Thanks for all the suggestions. I'm going to start by replacing the Eb pad with a leather clarinet pad to see if it seals better. If the lateral movement turns out to be a problem, I'll try one of the temporary fixes before going any further.
-Tom