A comparison between Blackwood and Cocuswood
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A comparison between Blackwood and Cocuswood
Hi all lads, I finally have 5 minutes to introduce this new topic, wich is probably one of the most ineresting thing about wooden flutes.
I would like to collect serious opinions from persons with an experience about the differences between cocuswood and blackwood, probably the best (not the only, but the best-known off course) timbers used for making flutes.
You can thalk about care and maintenance, durability, tone, volume, response, different kinds of woods that in your opinion sound better, what you want, but only one thing is important: your experience... Please don't say: "I think that..." if you never tested this timbers.
Now I'm curious...
I would like to collect serious opinions from persons with an experience about the differences between cocuswood and blackwood, probably the best (not the only, but the best-known off course) timbers used for making flutes.
You can thalk about care and maintenance, durability, tone, volume, response, different kinds of woods that in your opinion sound better, what you want, but only one thing is important: your experience... Please don't say: "I think that..." if you never tested this timbers.
Now I'm curious...
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Re: A comparison between Blackwood and Cocuswood
To determine if cocus and blackwood produce different sounds, one needs two flutes, made to the exact same specifications down to one hundredth of a millimeter or even better. Unless one is using modern technology like 3D xray scanners and CNC lathes/mills, that isn't possible. Even two flutes from the same maker made to the same specifications from the same wood at the same time usually perform slightly different, as the angle of the blowing edge varies by 0.5 degrees or some minor difference like that, that can't be seen, but certainly is there.
My opinion is that, as long as the material is dense enough, say 1.2g/cm3 or more, its influence on tone and playability is not measurable. There might be a difference with lighter timbers, say boxwood, but I haven't had the chance to try a boxwood flute long enough or even compare it to an identical flute made of blackwood.
Regarding appearance, cocus is lovely. It can cause allergies, as blackwood can. Don't know if one does more than the other. It shouldn't need too much oil, as blackwood doesn't. I oil my flute maybe once a year, a friend owns a cocus Nichsolson and never oils it.
My opinion is that, as long as the material is dense enough, say 1.2g/cm3 or more, its influence on tone and playability is not measurable. There might be a difference with lighter timbers, say boxwood, but I haven't had the chance to try a boxwood flute long enough or even compare it to an identical flute made of blackwood.
Regarding appearance, cocus is lovely. It can cause allergies, as blackwood can. Don't know if one does more than the other. It shouldn't need too much oil, as blackwood doesn't. I oil my flute maybe once a year, a friend owns a cocus Nichsolson and never oils it.
- Rob Sharer
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Re: A comparison between Blackwood and Cocuswood
Gabriel pretty much nailed it. I would only add that any difference, assuming there was one, would only be perceptible if the flute is being blown up to its full potential, i.e. the air column is truly "excited" and the flute is really ringing.
The world is full of great players who play their flutes up to this level as a matter of course, but it's even fuller of folks who potter around in the 'low gears', never getting the kind of full response out of a flute that would show up a difference in timbers.
Rob
The world is full of great players who play their flutes up to this level as a matter of course, but it's even fuller of folks who potter around in the 'low gears', never getting the kind of full response out of a flute that would show up a difference in timbers.
Rob
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Re: A comparison between Blackwood and Cocuswood
What gear do you blow in, Rob, and how do you know when to shift gears? I wonder if any flutes come with an overdrive?
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Re: A comparison between Blackwood and Cocuswood
Top gear, baby! The one that melts plastic.
Rob
Rob
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Re: A comparison between Blackwood and Cocuswood
...and? We all know you're a fine flute player, what do you think about the two woods?Rob Sharer wrote:Gabriel pretty much nailed it. I would only add that any difference, assuming there was one, would only be perceptible if the flute is being blown up to its full potential, i.e. the air column is truly "excited" and the flute is really ringing.
The world is full of great players who play their flutes up to this level as a matter of course, but it's even fuller of folks who potter around in the 'low gears', never getting the kind of full response out of a flute that would show up a difference in timbers.
Rob
Antique 6 key French flute for sale: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=102436
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Re: A comparison between Blackwood and Cocuswood
I’m not an acoustical engineer (I’m far more civil than that) so I could be mistaken.
I believe to many people get hung up on the material density of flutes. The density affects the sympathetic vibrations of the flute body (what we can feel with our fingers and lip). Yes this does affect the tone to a small extent.
But what I think is really important to tone is the hardness of the bore (surface reflectance) and texture. These factors have a far greater impact upon the tone and response of a flute than its weight.
Other considerations are of course durability and aesthetics.
So theoretically Cocus is harder than Grenadilla and therefore capable of producing a modicum of more brilliance in its tone. But this modicum of ability is minimal compared to the design and construction of the flute.
Just my opinion, other’s will vary!
Oh and yes I've played numerous flutes made out of both woods.
I believe to many people get hung up on the material density of flutes. The density affects the sympathetic vibrations of the flute body (what we can feel with our fingers and lip). Yes this does affect the tone to a small extent.
But what I think is really important to tone is the hardness of the bore (surface reflectance) and texture. These factors have a far greater impact upon the tone and response of a flute than its weight.
Other considerations are of course durability and aesthetics.
So theoretically Cocus is harder than Grenadilla and therefore capable of producing a modicum of more brilliance in its tone. But this modicum of ability is minimal compared to the design and construction of the flute.
Just my opinion, other’s will vary!
Oh and yes I've played numerous flutes made out of both woods.
Keep on Tootin!
Jordan
Jordan
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Re: A comparison between Blackwood and Cocuswood
Cocus is harder that Grenadilla? Where did you get this one from?
Antique 6 key French flute for sale: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=102436
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Re: A comparison between Blackwood and Cocuswood
Loaded question. The common assumption is the material makes a timbral difference and yet there is no basis for this assumption.
But let's say two flutes made by the same maker, different materials, same model, sound differently. Shall we automatically attribute those differences to the material without further investigation (e.g., measuring dimensions)?
Conversely, two flutes, same maker, different materials, same model, sound identical. Shall we automatically conclude that material plays no role? (What if the flutemaker had "voiced" each flute to sound the same?)
What if the flute player (un)consciously played two flutes to sound similar (or different)?
If the material does make a difference, what physical properties (density, porosity, wetting, etc.) are contributing factors?
Correlation <> causation. Judge not a book by its cover.
But let's say two flutes made by the same maker, different materials, same model, sound differently. Shall we automatically attribute those differences to the material without further investigation (e.g., measuring dimensions)?
Conversely, two flutes, same maker, different materials, same model, sound identical. Shall we automatically conclude that material plays no role? (What if the flutemaker had "voiced" each flute to sound the same?)
What if the flute player (un)consciously played two flutes to sound similar (or different)?
If the material does make a difference, what physical properties (density, porosity, wetting, etc.) are contributing factors?
Correlation <> causation. Judge not a book by its cover.
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Re: A comparison between Blackwood and Cocuswood
I'm agree with Gabriel about that there is not a big difference between cocus and blackwood.
I feel blackwood flutes slightly colder than cocus ones on my mouth.... wow.. but obviously
this just a simple impression.
What could be very intresting to consider is:
what kind of Blackwood we are talking about?
and what kind of Cocus we are talking about?
When the wood has been cutted?
How it has been cutted?
In wich month it has been cutted??
ecc..
usually makers are more involved in those kind of questions but
this would be a good matter of studies for players too..
I feel blackwood flutes slightly colder than cocus ones on my mouth.... wow.. but obviously
this just a simple impression.
What could be very intresting to consider is:
what kind of Blackwood we are talking about?
and what kind of Cocus we are talking about?
When the wood has been cutted?
How it has been cutted?
In wich month it has been cutted??
ecc..
usually makers are more involved in those kind of questions but
this would be a good matter of studies for players too..
- Rob Sharer
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Re: A comparison between Blackwood and Cocuswood
Thanks, mate. I play better than I used to, and not as nice as I'd like to - that's as far as I'd go, myself.Othannen wrote: ...and? We all know you're a fine flute player, what do you think about the two woods?
I have flutes in both woods. All are radically different from one another, most of which can be chalked up to different makers and/or designs. In fairness, who can tell?
I have never ordered a cocus flute from new, and that's no accident. I've arrived at the conclusion that the difference really isn't enough to mess with, considering the price differential but especially the continuing shortage of cocus. I've found that a really topping piece of blackwood gives me everything I need, including on my current fave half-lined headjoint where the wood really ought to be making its maximum contribution to the tone (if it's contributing much at all, that is).
If my tone isn't optimal, it's my fault, not the flute's.
Rob
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Re: A comparison between Blackwood and Cocuswood
Rob Sharer wrote:Top gear, baby! The one that melts plastic.
Rob
Yes, I can attest. (Sigh). The air column on my flute got excited the moment I brought it over to Rob's place. It has calmed down considerably since.
Charlie Gravel
“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.”
― Oscar Wilde
“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.”
― Oscar Wilde
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Re: A comparison between Blackwood and Cocuswood
Oh, c'mon now! No one's gonna touch that?
Charlie Gravel
“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.”
― Oscar Wilde
“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.”
― Oscar Wilde
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Re: A comparison between Blackwood and Cocuswood
No, it was just that once.
Charlie Gravel
“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.”
― Oscar Wilde
“I am so clever that sometimes I don't understand a single word of what I am saying.”
― Oscar Wilde