How much ornamentation is the correct amount?

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mandoboy
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How much ornamentation is the correct amount?

Post by mandoboy »

I have had heard both extremes from: 1. put in ornaments anywhere you can to use them to, 2. use them wherever you have to to separate notes and occasionally to add some flourish. When I listen to recorded music the amount of ornamentation seems to vary quite a bit. The current person I am following seems to add some kind of ornament about twice per bar (he isn't counting, I am just estimating).

Does the amount of ornamentation vary by the type of tune? For instance polka's seem to have minimal ornamentation.

Are there any rules on this issue?

Thanks.

Jeff

BTW: In case no one recognizes me, I made it to 14 months on this thing and can play (er.. butcher) a handful of tunes at a fair clip, so I changed my avatar from the mando to something more appropriate for this list.
Last edited by mandoboy on Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How much ornamentation is the correct amount?

Post by MTGuru »

Jeff, there was a fairly long. recent discussion of this exact topic in the Whistle Forum. So you may want to take a look before rehashing any those comments here.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=73920&start=30

Yes, fluting may be ornamented slightly less then whistling, typically, but mutatis mutandis ...
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Re: How much ornamentation is the correct amount?

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mandoboy
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Re: How much ornamentation is the correct amount?

Post by mandoboy »

MT thanks for that link. That was an interesting thread and an informative answer to my question.

I did see some flute listers answering over there, but I think it will still be interesting to see if there is any difference in the answer as it relates to the flute.

Jeff
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Re: How much ornamentation is the correct amount?

Post by MTGuru »

Yep. Unfortunately, I think it's kind of like asking "How many adjectives should I use in my sentences?" Two? Four? The question doesn't really make sense.

As with adjectives in speech, you ornament (i.e. articulate) particular tunes in particular ways in order to express what you want to express. And you learn how to do that by listening to, studying, and emulating models of other players who are effective and expressive. Trying to quantify this may be interesting from an analytic POV, but it won't help your playing.
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Re: How much ornamentation is the correct amount?

Post by benhall.1 »

What MT Guru said. Just to add: you know the answer already, Mandoboy. You're already a musician, so go with what you feel, what sounds right to you. That will, in any case, be exactly the right amount of ornamentation for your playing.
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Re: How much ornamentation is the correct amount?

Post by m31 »

MTGuru wrote:Yep. Unfortunately, I think it's kind of like asking "How many adjectives should I use in my sentences?" Two? Four? The question doesn't really make sense.

As with adjectives in speech, you ornament (i.e. articulate) particular tunes in particular ways in order to express what you want to express. And you learn how to do that by listening to, studying, and emulating models of other players who are effective and expressive. Trying to quantify this may be interesting from an analytic POV, but it won't help your playing.
As usual, nicely put. It's not how many ornaments, rather what kind of effect is one trying to illicit with their music? I find it helps to have a very clear mental picture of how the music should sound (ornaments, tone, pulse, tempo, etc.) in its delivery, whether that's to sound like another player, genre, or my own interpretation.
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Re: How much ornamentation is the correct amount?

Post by an seanduine »

I Luv illicit music :lol:
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jim stone
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Re: How much ornamentation is the correct amount?

Post by jim stone »

As I mentioned in earlier posts, I’ve been taking an Irish music ensemble class at the St. Louis folk school from a brilliant Irish fiddler. Entirely professional level fiddler. One can play on flute pretty much the ornaments played on fiddle. This fellow ornaments heavily and from the beginning of the tune and wants us to do the same, so I am–which is pretty much the opposite of how I approached ornamentation before.
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Re: How much ornamentation is the correct amount?

Post by Cubitt »

The answer to this is really quite simple. Go to a session and start your favorite tune. Use the ornaments you think you should use. If you overdo it, the ghost of Graham Chapman will enter the room in a policeman's uniform. He will address you directly, saying, "All right, then! Stop it! Too many ornaments! It's silly! Stop these ornaments right now or I shall have to ask you to come with me! Right! Carry on!"

At this point, you back off on your ornamentation. Very simple.

Let me know if you need some advice about playing flute with someone at a session playing ITM on a banana. I've taken a class.
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Re: How much ornamentation is the correct amount?

Post by tin tin »

I think it's important to separate the idea of 'articulation' from 'ornamentation.'

Cuts, taps, glottal stops, breathing, even rolls, are all tools to articulate the tune and create phrasing and rhythmic emphasis. Viewed through that lens, I don't see them as ornaments--they're part of your rendition of the tune, not imposed on the tune. (Think of how incomplete a tune would sound if you took a big breath at the beginning and then slurred 16 bars worth of notes.) The right amount is whatever makes the tune sound the way you'd like it to.
Last edited by tin tin on Thu Mar 04, 2010 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How much ornamentation is the correct amount?

Post by Rob Sharer »

Cubitt wrote: Let me know if you need some advice about playing flute with someone at a session playing ITM on a banana. I've taken a class.


What about a pointed stick?


R
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Re: How much ornamentation is the correct amount?

Post by Cubitt »

Rob Sharer wrote:
Cubitt wrote: Let me know if you need some advice about playing flute with someone at a session playing ITM on a banana. I've taken a class.


What about a pointed stick?


R
Oh, oh - we want a pointed stick, do we matey? Well, if you get accosted with some bloke playing "Irish Washerwoman" on a bowl of grapes, don't come running to me!
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Re: How much ornamentation is the correct amount?

Post by s1m0n »

The amount that enhances the tune and your playing of it.
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Re: How much ornamentation is the correct amount?

Post by Julia Delaney »

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